Gossip?

[ntech]

The JREF forum was made for conversation. (so-called gossip)

 

[Diamond]

Next you'll be prayed for to expel "the spirit of disharmony" or "the rebellious spirit".

Been there. Done that.

No friendship is worth sacrificing your sanity or your personal integrity. If your friend sees things in terms of how the church behaves (group behavior) then its not a friendship that can last, unfortunately. Authoritarian behavior is the same the world over: large number of people accept it, and a small minority dissent and are made to leave by the group dynamic.

Never mind Ruby. We atheists, agnostics and deists accept and like you just the same..

 

[Pahansiri]

'A man is accepted into church for what he believes--and turned out for what he knows. Mark Twain.

 

[Julia]

Ruby,
I believe that you know already that what you said does not fall under the catagory of gossip.
These people are not your friends. How many other friends do you have that put restrictions on what you are and are not allowed to discuss with them? I believe that friendships - like love - are in their purest form when they are unconditional.
You have grown, they have not. I hope you shed them like baggage you no longer need to carry, and find that it lightens your load as you continue to move forward.

 

[Candace]

Hello Ruby,

I'm fairly new around here, but reading back through your posts on this and the other thread, my opinion is that you seem like a sincerely nice person, and your former minister and church sound very, very controlling and manipulative.

By their classification of gossip, then reporting a fire or an assault would be gossip too... It's a dangerous situation that you were trying to bring into the light.

I agree with the other posters - I think you've outgrown these people and their need to control and be controlled.

Belief is supposed to be a source of strength and succor, NOT a weapon to be beaten with.



~~Candy

 

[Ruby]

Gossip, it is not gossip if you refer to events that you yourself have percieved, and to relate what others have told you of thier experience is not gossip.

It is gossip to spreead tales about things that have not been experienced by you, it is relating someone else's story to tell anothere experience.

There is funny thing about truth, it is always true. There may be different perceptions but the truth is always true.

Just be nice to them when this cult blow up.

Thanks!!

 

[Ruby]

As I suggested in a previous thread, this sort response is typical of some religious groups. They do not tolerate dissent, and they can't stand it when someone questions their "authoritah."

Nevertheless, they feel perfectly justified in heaping criticism on the dissenters, calling them (among other things) "factious" and "stiff-necked." ("Life of Brian" was very much on point, where the PFJ members angrily refer to former members as "splitters," even though they themselves were probably split off from another group at one point.)

These people have two serious character flaws: (1) they refuse to recognize the possibility that they might be in the wrong; and (2) they can dish it out but they can't take it.

You are so right!!

 

[Ruby]

Re: Re: Gossip?

Ruby,
Why should you be the one to make things all better now? You are being played.

Guilt can be a very controlling and destructive emotion. A manipulative person can use feelings of guilt to control (or punish) others.

It sounds to me like the pastor is finding avenues of communication directly to you, so that he can punish you for what he thinks you have done to him and the church.

Maybe you are a target here, maybe the pastor is using a shotgun approach to get the 1/3 of the church that left to feel guilty. Certainly a beneficial (to him) side effect is that he more closely controls his flock too.

You have a chance to turn the tables here - look at your old church friends as people who have a line of communication with your old pastor. This could be useful. You could do the playing - if you want to be as ruthless as your ex-church.

Part of me wants to do that......another part of me wants to ignore the whole thing and let it slip away.

I am sure I will probably end up responding to my friend.......and tell her that she was wrong to say I gossiped!

 

[Ruby]

Ruby,
Upchurch is SO RIGHT here! (Way to go dude!)

Your former church is, or is fast becoming a cult. Your escape from it is leaving some emotional scarring - which is ALSO a symptom of a cult!

You should do some reading Ruby - I highly recommend Captive Hearts, Captive minds which not only talks about cults, but controlling relationships. There is a LOT of literature on controlling groups - and I think it might benefit you to read something about it - you may recognize what is going on then.

Here is another good list of books on cults and controlling people from a source that really knows their stuff about cults. If you like something there better - get it and read it. You need to see what has been done to you.

Thanks so much for the book recommendations!!!

 

[Ruby]

Ruby
When you describe public events it is wrong for her to call that gossip. You have nothing to apologize for. Her and her husband are obviously siding and will side with that insane minister.

Please don’t feel you can trust those people any longer. They will stab you in the back.

I agree that you should wash your hands of these people. They are not in your league.

Thank you very much!!!

 

[Ruby]

Hi Ruby,

I've been following your threads on the subject of your 'divorce' from your church without joining in, but like everyone here I think you handled the whole thing brilliantly.

Thank you so much!!

Just thought I'd chuck my tuppence into this thread. Everyone's got a different way they'd react to the situation you're describing here, so I thought I'd just add what I think I'd do in that situation (rather than necessarily what I think you should do, Ruby).

Just meet what she said about you gossiping with a very friendly disagreement. Be concerned that she thought you were gossiping, as you respect her opinion, but say, having thought it over, you think there's a difference between what you did and gossip, and explain why. No need to get forthright, offended or defensive, or go on about it, just disagree in the mildest of ways. That way, it's not swept under the carpet, and you get to come back to what she said.

I think I'd also have the attitude that it's up to her if she wants to stay friends - make myself there if she wants to keep in touch, but not compromise myself or my feelings and thoughts just to do so. You can accept her as she is, so it's up to her to see if she can accept you as you are. Otherwise, she's not a friend anyway.

Yes, I am inclined to email her in this fashion. I appreciate the tips!!

I think it's a luxury of the sceptical position on things not to have to fall out with people over their beliefs - in fact, I tend to gravitate towards people who have different beliefs to me, as I find them interesting. If she wants to fall out with you, that's her limitation, and her loss, not yours.

She is not the easiet person to be friends with. I don't see myself hanging out with her at all. I really don't want to.

 

[Ruby]

Re: Re: Gossip?

Yahweh says "Let there be cynicism"...


Hi, Ruby!

Hi,

I just had a reply to made out to you, and when I sent, the next page loaded with a message saying my post had too many images/smilies in it to be posted. When I tried to come back to my reply.....all of it was gone

I remember that thread, the stories of how your pastor handled the church sounded innately "Cultish"... ah hell, it was cultish.
I love the way you can use the phrase "and probably a part of the Pastor's secret group of elders" and mean it both sarcastically and literally at the same time.
Of course your friend said you were gossiping, she says this because she needs to find at least one way to prove how are a bad bad dirty dirty person. Gossiping is the best she can do, she should try a lot harder next time.

Unfortunately, no matter what I say to her, she will see me as being a gossip and being confrontational. Still, it does not stop me from speaking my mind to her.

In my experience, being confrontational is probably the first step to be intelligent. Your friend sounds like she's the type to be passive submissive (she likes to be told what to think because doesnt have the intellect or testicular fortitude to think for herself). She also seems to dismissive of the priests actions and too willing to persecute anyone who disagrees with the all knowing and wise "Church".

She is pretty much passive submissive. She lacks passion. That has always been one of the most outstanding things to me about her. I worried about her due to it.

Dont feel bad . If makes you feel better, you can show your friend this site and when she starts posting crazy talk, we'll all criticize her and teach her a lesson about making our beloved Ruby feel bad.

She would never post here. She is not the type. Thsi would be way way out of her league anyway. I know that sounds mean but it is the truth. It's almost out of my league here......I am not the most intelligent cookie on the block.

I was born in the South, there is a lot of Christians who live there who havent taken the time to figure out why exactly they are Christians (such as rationalizing their beliefs, asking some of the big religious questions, etc.)
She calls you wrong, she calls you a gossip, she says you are confrontational simply because you disagree with the way your church was being ran... yeah "turn the other cheek" and "love thy neighbor" mean nothing to this "true Christian" now does it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it takes a little more than "defending the Church" to make you a "true Christian".

Yep, it sure does.

I think if you have gossiped here on the JREF (which I dont think you have), you did it with good intentions.

It has been of geat aid to my being......who I am....to be able to vent here. All of you have helped me so much....you can't imagine.


I have more to resond to...but must run for now.....my 11 month old dear baby boy wants his breakfast.......that means mashed bananas!!!

 

[thaiboxerken]

Gossiping is more like spreading news for the purpose of entertainment at the expense of others. I really don't think you were intending to entertain people with your news. I also don't think you were spreading news for the sole purpose of hurting people.

Ahh well, it's better that you learned your "friend's" true colors sooner than later.

It could be worse, you could be one of the mindless sheep that the Pastor is still controlling.

 

[wollery]

I've just looked in my dictionary (yeah I know it's sad, but hey!) and the main points in the definitions of gossip are; idle or casual talk to a friend, malicious intent & spreading rumours.

Your conversations about your ex-church have been important discussions about the point of religion and the ethics of the pastor and his treatment of you and the congregation as a whole. Such conversations and seeking the advice of others could never be described as idle or casual.
There was no malicious intent on your part, in fact, if anything, just the opposite, I always got the feeling that you were sounding out your feelings rather than venting them on those who'd caused them, in order to make your responses more level and restrained.
Rumours are `a mixture of truth and untruth' or `hearsay' (the dictionary again), neither of which applies to anything you've said since you were only recounting your own experiences.

From this I think it's fairly safe to say that you were not gossipping and you are not a gossip.

 

[Ruby]

Re: Re: Gossip?

Let me guess, this is all fine and dandy with your friend. Your friend doesnt seem to be one very familiar with compassion or the with branch of philosophy called "ethics". She's a run with the crowd kind of gal, if her pastor is being insultive then certainly she should be too. The friend sounds like she has a real winner personality.

Her ethics are centered around legalistic church teaching. That's one reason that my argument to her about not gossiping won't wash because she will use scripture passages (if she can find them) to say that her standard is the bible standard and anything less is wrong. Then again, I might get away with it just being my "opinion". No, she is not one of the most compassionate people you would meet....although she is generous to people and volunteering for many church activities.

She just lacks passion. It seems to me that she does not know how to act or feel when it comes to extreme emotions. I feel bad for her in that regard. I feel she is very repressed.......although not as bad as when I first met her.

She is a prime candidate to be sucked in and abused by a cult.

My hubby did not get along with her husband at all. He tried, but they never hit it off. My hubby just felt annoyed and angry at it whenever he was around. Her husband is the typical good ole boy Texas. He has his guns and he can fish up a storm....what more is there to life?

For some reason, that confounds us, he was ordained to be minister. He's had little education........and does not pursue any theological study. If you bring up a topic other than guns and fishing, he just looks at you sideways. Our Former Pastor put this guy in charge of the mens ministry as well as other things. It was a joke! My hubby, and another good friend, would not even go these meetings.

Both my hubby and our friend have had years of theological study. They could teach circles round this guy. In fact, our friend and his wife (she is getting her masters in theological studies) had to prompt this guy while he was preaching a sermon at the homeless shelter because he could not remember how long Jesus had his ministry before he was crucified. This is very basic christianity and he did not know it.

I better get off my soap box!!!

No! Do not give in to her. Her intentions were to deliberately hurt you for you beliefs, you have no reason to apoligize. Zep mentioned that there we have chased all the crazy people away on another thread, bring this friend to this message board. She might learn a thing or two about acting like intelligent moral person (she might learn a thing or two about religion as well).
You always have a shoulder to cry on here at the JREF. If you need to cry, cry. If you need to gossip, gossip.

Thanks!! Dang it, I need a place to vent/gossip...whatever!!

Sure, Yahweh doesnt have a talent with being uplifting, but he speaks the truth and he says your friend is completely ill-founded in her beliefs and the way she treats others.

Thank you. I thought your post was very uplifting!!!

 

[Ruby]

]Next you'll be prayed for to expel "the spirit of disharmony" or "the rebellious spirit".

Yep. I am sure I am seen as being rebellious to my friend.

Been there. Done that.

Sorry to hear it!!

No friendship is worth sacrificing your sanity or your personal integrity. If your friend sees things in terms of how the church behaves (group behavior) then its not a friendship that can last, unfortunately. Authoritarian behavior is the same the world over: large number of people accept it, and a small minority dissent and are made to leave by the group dynamic.

No, I don't see how I can maintain a friendship with her anyway. She will just send me lots of stupid forwards and emails running on about what she has done for the day!

Never mind Ruby. We atheists, agnostics and deists accept and like you just the same..

Thank you so much!!

In my life....I feel so rejected.

 

[Ruby]

'A man is accepted into church for what he believes--and turned out for what he knows. Mark Twain.

I love that quote!! I added it to my sig.

 

[Ruby]

Ruby,
I believe that you know already that what you said does not fall under the catagory of gossip.
These people are not your friends. How many other friends do you have that put restrictions on what you are and are not allowed to discuss with them? I believe that friendships - like love - are in their purest form when they are unconditional.
You have grown, they have not. I hope you shed them like baggage you no longer need to carry, and find that it lightens your load as you continue to move forward.

I only have two friends that I have an unconditional friendship with. They are a really cool married couple. They left my former church too. They were the first ones to go. They are fairly liberal Christians....not so much as I have become....but it does not matter to them. They have stuck through thick and thin with me and my hubby. All my other friends are still at my former church.

I have definitely grown and changed. I think I would shock my friend who emailed me if I let her know the extent of how I have changed.

Thanks so much for your post!!

 

[Ruby]

Re: Re: Gossip?

Hello Ruby,

I'm fairly new around here, but reading back through your posts on this and the other thread, my opinion is that you seem like a sincerely nice person, and your former minister and church sound very, very controlling and manipulative.

By their classification of gossip, then reporting a fire or an assault would be gossip too... It's a dangerous situation that you were trying to bring into the light.

I agree with the other posters - I think you've outgrown these people and their need to control and be controlled.

Belief is supposed to be a source of strength and succor, NOT a weapon to be beaten with.



~~Candy

Hi and welcome!!!!

Thank you for posting to me.

I am pretty fed up and tired of churches beating on me. All three of the church that I have belonged to have abused and beat me up.

 

[Ruby]

Gossiping is more like spreading news for the purpose of entertainment at the expense of others. I really don't think you were intending to entertain people with your news. I also don't think you were spreading news for the sole purpose of hurting people.

No. I was so hurt and angry and I emailed my friend because I wanted her to know why we, and many others, had left. She had missed some very important services where the Pastor preached his horrible harsh messages. She was emailing me....after she returned from a trip........talking to me as if I was still a member at church. She had not clue what had happened. She caught me when I was fuming and so very hurt. I could not stop myself from emailing and telling her what transpired.

Ahh well, it's better that you learned your "friend's" true colors sooner than later.

It could be worse, you could be one of the mindless sheep that the Pastor is still controlling.

I am SO thankful NOT be a blind little mindless sheep!!!!!!!