Gordon Brown on the brink?

Darat said:
At least that's transparency!
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And to clarify as I have no reason to suspect him of being an MP, when I refer to lying I mean in the sense of being physically located upon the table, not in the "having my moat cleaned by my brothers duck while having my furniture repaired in my flipped house was necessary for the performance of my parliamentary duties" sense.
 
As much as I think Labour have made a balls up recently I could never bear it if the Tories get back in. Regardless of the fact that this would most likely lead to a faster breakup of the union (which I am in favour of)

I have always voted for and will always vote for the scottish party, not some satellite english party.

I have a phobia about going through anpther tory govt due to past experiences. The crisis now is nothing compared to what some people went through in Maggies times.
 
Architect said:
We have to wait until Monday for the result???

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/8081812.stm

Chan eil fhios agamsa........
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It was always thus.

If you can find someone who was present at the verification of the voting papers (tonight or tomorrow) you will probably get some information about how things are going. At verification, papers are not sorted, but laid out face down in bundles of ten to check that each box has the correct number of papers. Observers from the political parties can see from the reverse where the vote is on the top papers, thus giving a 10% sample of the voting. I've known a very close votes correctly called in this way. Sometimes this information is leaked to the press, so I'll be wathcing Saturday's Herald.

Of course with the entire country now being just a single huge constituency, this will complicate the issue, and it won't be so easy to forecast the actual result from observing a single count. However, it should give some indications.

Since nearly all the other countries involved in this vote don't go to the polls until Sunday, we're not allowed to count our votes till then - because, on a Europe-wide basis, the polls have not in fact closed.

Rolfe.
 
mummymonkey said:
The full choice:
British National Party - "Protecting British Jobs"
Christian party "Proclaiming Christ's Lordship"
Conservative Party "Scottish Conservative & Unionist"
Jury Team "Democracy, Accountability, Transparency"
Liberal Democrats
No2EU:Yes to Democracy
Scottish Green Party
Scottish National Party "Protecting Scottish Jobs, working for recovery"
Scottish Socialist Party
Socialist Labour Party "Splitters!"
The Labour Party
United Kingdom Independence Party "UKIP"
Duncan Robertson "Independent"
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Only thirteen? We have seventeen down in the South West. Plus the fact that Gibraltar is lumped-in with the constituency!
 
In some respects, yes, but it is bitterly unfair about the expenses scandal making Brown a bad Prime Minister. The abuse has likely been going on for decades, and the sheer magnitude of this event would have hit any Prime Minister hard.

I also disagree that no Prime Minister other than Blair could deliver such a victory for Labour. Attlee anyone (won more votes in his 1951 defeat than Labour won in 2001 too)?
 
I think the recent expenses scandal has publicly exposed what many of his critics have said about him in the past. I.e. that he can be a ditherer, in the sense of always wanting more information, and not saying "OK that's enough, a decision has to be made and it is X."

Blair was certainly more ruthless once he came to a decision, and I think in the recent expenses scandal he would have dealt with it quicker and more decisively and certainly would have had Cameron on the back-foot a lot more. (Simply because in political terms the expenses scandal should have been more damaging to the Tories, given the details of claims.)
 
Well at least they'll get one vote, UW. :D

Me, I'm going to vote Tory later. Hopefully Gordon Brown will be out soon so we can have a general election and get rid of Labour. I'd have no problem if that led to Scottish Independence, it's about time we stopped subsidising them. Though, I'd prefer to just give the devolved government fiscal independence.
 
Uzzy said:
Well at least they'll get one vote, UW. :D

Me, I'm going to vote Tory later. Hopefully Gordon Brown will be out soon so we can have a general election and get rid of Labour. I'd have no problem if that led to Scottish Independence, it's about time we stopped subsidising them. Though, I'd prefer to just give the devolved government fiscal independence.
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Ho ho, too funny.
 
I've pretty much stopped responding to that. However, it does show how entrenched that particular piece of propaganda has become.

I remember, many years ago, an edition of The Money Programme where one particular academic who had made a study of the issue showed with plentiful figures and graphs that Scotland in control of its own revenues would not be worse off than within the union, and that it was certainly not subsidised. His figures were not challenged in any way. The programme simply continued to discuss whether Scotland could possibly afford to be independent in view of the loss of subsidy that would result.

More recently, 30-year revelations with respect to the lies and damn lies that were being peddled in the 1970s still haven't changed the fixed assertion that Scotland receives more than it contributes. Nor have the multiple reports from respected academics revealing the political bias and simple inaccuracies in the GERS reports.

This "subsidy" is just something "everybody knows", and will probably still be being repeated without question right up to independence day.

Rolfe.
 
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Uzzy said:
Well at least they'll get one vote, UW. :D

Me, I'm going to vote Tory later. Hopefully Gordon Brown will be out soon so we can have a general election and get rid of Labour. I'd have no problem if that led to Scottish Independence, it's about time we stopped subsidising them. Though, I'd prefer to just give the devolved government fiscal independence.
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Evidence? Start a thread and prepare to get a bit of a drubbing.
 
Darat said:
Blair was certainly more ruthless once he came to a decision, and I think in the recent expenses scandal he would have dealt with it quicker and more decisively and certainly would have had Cameron on the back-foot a lot more. (Simply because in political terms the expenses scandal should have been more damaging to the Tories, given the details of claims.)
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While I agree that Blair would have doubtlessly spun it better (and would have apologised much quicker - Broon seems to have a huge problem saying sorry for anything), I am not sure that your conclusion that the details of the claims mean it should have hit the Tories harder. I think the claims that have caused the biggest outrage are the "phantom interest" ones where MPs claimed for mortgage payments that never existed - I think these were both Labour? Sure duck ponds and moats make decent soundbites for a bit of comedy, but you can't make any mileage out of it when your own MPs are claiming for non existent expenses.

Willing to be convinced though....
 
For those who consider voting Tory in protest, consider what you are voting in. How many of those on the Tory side preparing to form a new Government voted for the minimum wage? How many supported civil partnerships?

It's worth remembering what Cameron tried to get elected in on in 1997. It was trademark Thatcheresc policy, with little to no relationship to his current positions.
 
So are there "This is the end of Labour, the Tories will rule forever," articles being written?

:popcorn1
 
Mostly by the Liberal Democrats, who are desperate to seize the spotlight and become the second party. Clegg yesterday said that the choice was now between the Tories and the Lib Dems, to much laughter from the chamber, on the Conservative side as well.

The thing about the Tories is that they have been very good at hanging onto power, but I don't think they have ever had the massive endorsements the Attlee and Blair government's managed to get in 1945 and 1997. Thatcher's win in 1979 was decisive, but it wasn't overwhelming.

Labour can return, but I don't think they can ever go back to the Labour of 'the longest suicide note in history' (I.e, their 1983 manifesto). Attlee and Blair were successful in changing the zeitgeist about Socialism, by taking it away from the mad protestors with long beards and their four chords on the guitar, and brought it into the world of suits and rationalism.
 
Undesired Walrus said:
The thing about the Tories is that they have been very good at hanging onto power, but I don't think they have ever had the massive endorsements the Attlee and Blair government's managed to get in 1945 and 1997. Thatcher's win in 1979 was decisive, but it wasn't overwhelming.
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Conservative %age of vote in 79 - 43.87% (percentage of electorate - 33.33%)
Labour %age of vote in 97 - 43.21% (percentage of electorate - 30.806%)

In what way was 97 a "massive endorsement" while 79 was not?
 
funk de fino said:
The crisis now is nothing compared to what some people went through in Maggies times.
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Whichever party gets in next time round, the public sector cutbacks are going to be a lot deeper and a lot more painful than they were when Thatcher did them. There is no other way to get borrowing under control than reverse large chunks of the increased spending that took place over the last decade.
 
Undesired Walrus said:
Labour can return, but I don't think they can ever go back to the Labour of 'the longest suicide note in history' (I.e, their 1983 manifesto). Attlee and Blair were successful in changing the zeitgeist about Socialism, by taking it away from the mad protestors with long beards and their four chords on the guitar, and brought it into the world of suits and rationalism.
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The danger for Labour is that those with the safest seats (who are more likely to survive the meltdown in support at the next general election) are firmly on the long beard wing of the party. The surviving rump may well lurch to the left.
 
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