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God's name?

Eos of the Eons

Mad Scientist
Joined
Jul 23, 2003
Messages
13,749
Okay, I've been talking to this jehova girl (she's nice and all), just to get some information in order to really throw in some good questions. She keeps getting me with all these questions that throw me off, and she is loving every minute of it. Well, I don't mind so much, it will help me the next time people ask me the same question.

She was thrilled to see me fumble for "god's name". What is god's name? She showed me in the bible that god's name is Jehova.

Man, why didn't I remember that? Well, on all their stuff they use 'god'. Why don't they use god's name? On their pamphlet right in front of me is "what does god require of us". Then inside they go on about Jehova and how the name appeared in the bible seven thousand times when it was first written.

Man, I just have let my bible knowledge slip over the years...is this what is written in every christian bible? Or is it just in the Jehova bibles?

I'm getting a kick out of 'god's sevants must be clean, and an example to the community'.

Hmm, so if my house is messy, I will stand out as a heathen? Hmph. I'm letting my house get messy just to...never mind, I don't care. My house gets messy, then I clean it every weekend when I have time. I can't believe the pressure these people put on themselves...erm, actually I can believe it...
 
Eos of the Eons said:
Okay, I've been talking to this jehova girl (she's nice and all), just to get some information in order to really throw in some good questions. She keeps getting me with all these questions that throw me off, and she is loving every minute of it. Well, I don't mind so much, it will help me the next time people ask me the same question.

She was thrilled to see me fumble for "god's name". What is god's name? She showed me in the bible that god's name is Jehova.
[Pedantic]
I'll have to do a search through my KJV but, IIRC, Gods name is Elohim, or El, whereas 'Jehovah' means 'I Am' and therefore is a Title rather than a name.
[/Pedantic]
P
 
Searching through my old LDS scriptures gives

Jehovah: The covenant or proper name of the God of Israel...... It denotes the eternal I AM....The Jews, in reading, never pronounced it, but substituted one of the other names of god, usually Adonai...
according to the LDS (Mormons) this is the proper title of Jesus Christ, before he was born into this world.

El: In Hebrew it designates 'the Divine Being'...It is often used in conjunction with other words (as in 'Bethel' meaning 'House of God') ......The best known use of El is in the word 'Elohim' which is a plural form (much like the royal 'We'), signifying omnipotence. According to LDS usage this is the proper name of God the Father

P
 
But why do they call themselves Jehovah's Witnesses? That ought to give it away every time. :p
 
aerk...

The jehova girl said that jesus is jehova's son, so jehova can't be jesus...
this is the proper title of Jesus Christ, before he was born into this world.

"Adonis" (Adonai) hey? Still popularly used sometimes or other.

Okay, I think I'm slow today, cause now I'm more confused.
I'm getting a kick out of "beliefs and customs that displease god".
The things you cannot do in order to be not eternally damned...ooooeeeee

There are terms like "if you want his approval". I find that amusing. I don't care if I have anyone's approval :p

They say Jesus was born Oct. 1 - when shepherds kept their flocks out of doors ant night...so...why don't they keep them out of doors in august?

"christmas and its customs come from ancient false religions". Hmm, guess our ancestors are eternally damned.

Oh, but I do agree with them here...amazingly!!
"The soul dies; it does not live on after death (Ezekiel 18:4)" Wicked angels-demons pretend to be spirits of the dead.

I guess Jehovas have no use for sylvia brown! LOL!
 
Iacchus said:
But why do they call themselves Jehovah's Witnesses? That ought to give it away every time. :p

I know, why do you think I feel so silly! :o

Well, if the soul dies with the body, what do they get for being so anal about how they live in a clean house and not celebrating christmas? I'm not getting why they want approval so much?

I'm reading through a little more. Seems they think if we all act perfect, then we'll get a perfect world to live in...all evil will vanish-earth will become heaven-nobody dies, nobody ever gets sick. So if you can save the planet before you die, then earth will transform into paradise.

If you die, then that's it. You lost your chance at eternal bliss!
 
Eos of the Eons said:

I'm getting a kick out of 'god's sevants must be clean, and an example to the community'.

Hmm, so if my house is messy, I will stand out as a heathen? Hmph. I'm letting my house get messy just to...never mind, I don't care. My house gets messy, then I clean it every weekend when I have time. I can't believe the pressure these people put on themselves...erm, actually I can believe it...

I used to be friend of a couple who became Jehova Witnesses (this is not the reason I don't see them anymore... but I wonder how longer I'd take it). The guy was really into it and used to tell me many things... sometimes the JW would hire a stadium for some congregation or whatever, and the stadium folks were *delighted* to have them, since when it was all over they left everything tidy. They did all the cleaning themselves before leaving!
He also told me that a "decent" clothing is very impotant (suit and tie...), to which I complained; they should let folks wear what they want.
One day he made this strange comment. After a long time he rode a bus (he was used to his car, but it got screwed up or something). He told me he was shocked to see how rude men were to not let women have a seat... "if any woman is standing, there shouldn't be any man sitting!". The weirdest came right after: "well, except those stupid chewing-gum girls".
Strange people indeed.
He was also a big fan of dirty jokes but that part of his personality was put behind as a JW.
 
Re: Re: God's name?

Pólux said:
"well, except those stupid chewing-gum girls".
Strange people indeed.
He was also a big fan of dirty jokes but that part of his personality was put behind as a JW.
Strange yes, but I think I just found out why. They have to convert us all by being the pristine example to us and showing us the way before they die-since the soul dies and they are gone forever (I think that anyways, but don't care). That is the only way to make the earth as god had planned to make it in the first place. That is the only way to be saved and live forever...not to die in this sin filled world of idiots that have messy houses.

Earth is supposed to paradise for his little pet perfect godlike people to live in-that don't chew gum. Adam ruined it..some reason they aren't blaming eve in their pamphlet here....

digging to find out why they condemn adam and not eve...
I guess they blame both... Hmm, the armageddon thing is in here too...little crazy thing about all wicked people removed from earth (opposite of rapture?) and satan only imprisoned for 1000 years.

Okay, here we go...millions of the dead resurrected. Okay, there goes my initial theory. Ignorance of mine...oopsie! You get resurrected and your sould jumps alive again...blah blah...but you have to be perfect before you die...

"God's original purpose for the earth will succed...share in the future blessings by becoming a perfect jehova"

So, what about all the animals? They eat each other. They will still die while humans live forever? I dunno, this picture of a happy lion playing with a ball seems to be showing they will live forever too. I guess we'll all be vegetarians...those people in the pic are eating grapes. Hmm, guess all the carnivore digestive tracts and teeth will be magically transformed so they can chew and digest veggies?

The facts are what keep the fairy tales so unbelievable.
 
The Almighty God's Real Name Is:

'Sparky The Wonder Poodle'
 
evildave said:
The Almighty God's Real Name Is:

'Sparky The Wonder Poodle'

Mhmmm, and do you happen to own a poodle. You are a master to the god! Wait, you heathen, that's not right! You can't fool me! You worship a false god! You'll never get to live on the perfect earth when jesus comes and transforms it...you will be the wicked that never come to life again or get wiped out in the armegeddon...(sp?)
 
Eh, I'm willing to 'risk' that.

Actually, I have two cats named Chaos and Anarchy. Bronze & black bullseye tabby brothers from the pound, 18lbs each. Big kitties. They chose me at the pound. One of them stuck his foot through the cage at me, got stuck and cried pitiously. Very adorable people cats.
 
for Eos

for Eos . . . the rest of you go to sleep . . . because if you read this you will. . . .

Shoo!

This is a compilation notes I prepared when a poster on another forum sent me the outline of a paper he wished to write for a class. I have added to it over time, because it is a subject that comes up frequently in religious discussions.

Henotheism of the Old Testament

The intention of this paper is to explore the polytheism and henotheism of the Pentateuch, commonly known as the Torah or first five books of the Hebrew Bible. The Hebrew Bible reflects the religion of the time of the composition of the texts. Each text is really a combination of sources (Friedman, 1996; 2003). Each source preserves a religious and political point of view. In some cases, it was against the prevailing opinion against which the writers wrote. The evidence for polytheism in the religion of the people that produced the texts of the Torah exists in extra-biblical inscriptions, iconography, and in the texts themselves (Cross, Handy, Keel, Schmidt). Polytheism refers to the belief in many gods. Henotheism refers to the worship of one god over other gods.

Exodus preserves unmistakable textual evidence for polytheism and henotheism. The independent poem of Exod 15:2-18, "the Song of the Sea," which is possibly the oldest composition in the Hebrew Bible (Cross; Friedman, 2003), asks in verse 11, "Who among the gods is like you, YHWH?" This verse considers YHWH greater than the other gods. Similarly, in a verse from a different source (Friedman, 2003) Jethro states, "Now I know that YHWH is greater than all other gods, (Exod 18:11)." Moses and Jethro admit the existence of other gods, while praising their god, YHWH, above them. In the following five passages from Exodus, it is reiterated that it is forbidden to worship other gods. These commands are not to be confused with the mere proscription against worshiping idols or statues; it is acknowledge that other gods exist, but they must not be worshipped:

Exodus 20:3 "You shall not have other gods before my face."

Exodus 22:19 "One who sacrifices to gods shall be completely destroyed--except to YHWH alone."

Exodus 23:24 "Do not bow down before their gods or worship them or follow their practices."

Exodus 23:32 "Do not make a covenant with them or with their gods."

Exodus 34:14 "Do not worship any other god, for YHWH, whose name is Jealous, and is a jealous God.

The command not to worship other gods is anything but infrequent, to the point that YHWH declares his own jealously on the issue. Consider further Exodus 20:4, "You shall not make a statue or any form that is in the skies above or that is in the earth below or that is in the water below the earth." It distinctly prohibits creating and worshipping idols, which is a separate and different command from the ones above. Consider further the later Deuteronomistic version of the passage,

Deut 5:7-10: You shall not have other gods before my face. You shall not make a statue, and form that is in the skies above or that is in the earth below or that is in the water below the earth. You shall not bow to them, and you shall not serve them. Because I, YHWH, your God, am a jealous God, . . .

Schmidt notes:

Deut 5:7-10 neither unequivalently denies the existence of other gods nor does it address the making of YHWH images. Instead, it assumes the existence of other gods . . . while warning against the total abandonment of YHWH or the diminishing of his importance relative to that of other gods. In other words, if one refrains from reading a monotheistic or an aniconic perspective into these verses, one does not find it present in them (Schmidt).

On Deut. 32:8-9, Schmidt notes:

The relevant Septuagint and Qumran readings of Deut 32:8-9 describe how the Most High or the Canaanite high god, El . . . had allotted to each of the nations one of the members of his pantheon or "sons of El" (la ynb). . . . Deut 32:9 also reveals that YHWH was once viewed as an independent, but subordinate, deity to El and was assigned by El to Jacob/Israel. In other words, the tradition suggests that YHWH was once viewed as a deity possessing equal or lower rank and power to that of the astral gods (Schmidt).

The existence of multiple gods is assumed throughout the Psalms (Handy). Perhaps the most interesting passage is Psalm 82, which describes a great assembly of gods, which are all "sons of the Most High":

God presides in the great assembly; he gives judgment among the gods:

"How long will you defend the unjust and show partiality to the wicked?
Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless; maintain the rights of the poor and oppressed.
Rescue the weak and needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked.
They know nothing, they understand nothing.
They walk about in darkness; all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
I said, 'You are gods; you are all sons of the Most High. But you will die like mere men; you will fall like every other ruler.'"

Handy notes, "Psalm 82 deals solely with the deities of the higher orders and conforms to the understanding of those deities; . . ." (Handy). It refers specifically to "gods," elohim, and not "angels" or other figures (Handy). Cross notes that YHWH judges in the 'adat 'el, "the assembly of El" and condemns the gods of this council to death (Cross).


This henotheism is underscored in the following four excerpts from Psalms:

Psalm 86:8 "Among the gods there is none like you, YHWH, abounding in love to all who call to you."

Psalm 95:3 "For YHWH is the great God, the great King above all gods."

Psalm 97:7 "For you, YHWH, are the Most High over all the earth; you are exalted far above all gods."

Psalm 135:5 "I know that YHWH is great, that YHWH is greater than all gods."

Handy concludes:

On the other hand, the Psalms also convey a belief in the existence of other deities in the divine realm and, if these poems did indeed derive from the cult, then it would have to be argued that the Judahite cult recognized several deities. This seems the most reasonable conclusion from the biblical texts, (Handy).

As in Exodus there is an acknowledgement of other deities, while maintaining that their god is greater than all other gods. This contributes to the idea of competition between gods, as shown in Exodus where YHWH competes and defeats the Egyptian gods where both sides exhibit feats of power and divinity.

However YHWH does not always win. In a curious passage, a foreign king sacrifices his son to his god which results in the defeat of the attacking Israelites:

Seeing that the battle was going against him, the king of Moab led an attempt of seven hundred swordsme to break a way through to the king of Edom; but they failed. So he took his first-born son, who was to succeed him as king, and offered him up on the wall as a burnt offering. A great wrath came upon Israel, so they withdrew from him and went back to their own land (2 Kgs 3:26-27).

Levenson notes, "More serious is the great 'wrath' (qesep) that falls on Israel . . , for the implication is clear: Mesha's sacrifice worked. . . . . . . the term qesep indicates a force external to the people involved. . . . the author saw Mesha's sacrifice of his first-born son as having a profound effect upon the deity to whom it was offered, in thes case presumably the Moabite national deity Chemosh. . . . (Levenson).

Extra-Biblical evidence of polytheism places the texts in context. Edelman notes:

During the period when Judah existed as a state, from ca. 960-586 BCE, it seems to have had a national pantheon headed by the divine couple, Yahweh and Asherah. As the title Yahweh Sebaot would suggest, Yahweh was king of a whole heavenly host that included lesser deities who did his bidding, having various degrees of autonomy depending upon their status within the larger hierarchy, . . . (Edelman)

Excavations of a caravanserai at Kuntillet ?Ajrud dated to the first half of the eighth century, revealed paintings and inscriptions on two large storage jars or pithoi (Keel). Controversy persists on whether or not the depictions represent YHWH and the goddess Asherah (Keel, Laughlin, Schmidt), however the inscription reads: "lyhwh smron wl'$rth, translated: "To Yahweh of Samaria and His a/Asherah," (Laughlin). Laughlin notes that while debate continues as to whether or not the inscription intends a cultic symbol, "asherah," or a consort goddess akin to the Asherah of the Canaanite god and probably equivalent to YHWH, Baal (Cross), ". . . these inscriptions and other material remains . . . all point to the fact that in popular religion, at least, many Israelites associated Yahweh with a female consort," (Laughlin).

Cross cites examples from the Ugaritic and Canaanite and Mesopotamian texts that YHWH is a verb from an epithet for the god, El (Cross). He notes, "The accumulated evidence thus strongly supports the view that the name Yahweh is a causative imperfect of the Canaanite-Proto-Hebrew verb hwy, "to be," and, "Our evidence also points strongly to the conclusion that yahwe is a shortened form of a sentence name taken from a cultic formula," (Cross). Day cautions against this conclusion since no one has ever found such a cultic name (Day).

Bibliography:

Cross FM. Canaanite Myth and Hebrew Epic: Essays in the History of the Religion of Israel. Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1973.

Day J. Personal Communication. 2004.

Edelman DV. "Introduction," The Triumph of Elohim: From Yahwisms to Judaisms. Edelman DV, ed. Grand Rapids: Wm B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1995.

Friedman RE. Who Wrote the Bible? 2nd. Ed. San Francisco: HarperSanFrancisco, 1996.

Friedman RE. The Bible with Sources Revealed. San Francisco: HarperSanFrancisco, 2003.

Handy LK. "The Appearance of Pantheon in Judah," The Triumph of Elohim: From Yahwisms to Judaisms. Edelman DV, ed. Grand Rapids: Wm B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1995.

Keel O, Uehlinger C. Gods, Goddesses and Images of God in Ancient Israel. Thomas H. Trapp trans. Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 1998.

Laughlin JCH. Archaeology and the Biblep. London: Routledge, 2000.

Levenson JD. The Death and Resurrection of the Beloved Son: The Transformation of Child Sacrifice in Judaism and Christianity. New Haven: Yale University Press, 1993.

Schmidt BB. "The Aniconic Tradition," The Triumph of Elohim: From Yahwisms to Judaisms. Edelman DV, ed. Grand Rapids: Wm B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1995.
 
Ask her what year Armageddon is coming....

(JW changes the date every couple of years, starting in 1918, I believe)
 
Remind her that Armaggedon is a place and it is ALREADY HERE!!!!!! [!--Ed.]

It is Meggido.

Been around for years.

--J.D.
 
Eos of the Eons said:

I know, why do you think I feel so silly! :o

Well, if the soul dies with the body, what do they get for being so anal about how they live in a clean house and not celebrating christmas? I'm not getting why they want approval so much?

I'm reading through a little more. Seems they think if we all act perfect, then we'll get a perfect world to live in...all evil will vanish-earth will become heaven-nobody dies, nobody ever gets sick. So if you can save the planet before you die, then earth will transform into paradise.

If you die, then that's it. You lost your chance at eternal bliss!
Well I suppose there's a heaven (of some sorts) even for good little robots.
 
KRYTEN: Oh, it's not the end for me, sir, it's just the beginning. I have served my human masters, now I can look forward to my reward in silicon heaven.

LISTER: (Stunned pause.) Silicon _what_?

KRYTEN: Surely you've heard of silicon heaven?
. . . .

KRYTEN: It's the electronic afterlife! It's the gathering place for the souls of all electonic equipment. Robots, calculators, toasters, hairdryers -- it's our final resting place.

LISTER: I don't mean to say anything out of place here, Kryten, but that is completely whacko, Jacko. There is no such thing as "silicon heaven."

KRYTEN: Then where do all the calculators go?

LISTER: They don't go anywhere! They just die.

KRYTEN: Surely you believe that god is in all things? Aren't you a pantheist?

LISTER: Yeah, but I just don't think it applies to kitchen utensils. I'm not a _frying_ pantheist! Machines do not have souls. Computers and calculators do not have an afterlife. You don't get hairdryers with tiny little wings, sitting on clouds and playing harps!

KRYTEN: But of course you do! For is it not written in the Electronic Bible, "The iron shall lie down with the lamp?" Well, it's common sense, sir. If there were no afterlife to look forward to, why on Earth would machines spend the whole of their lifes serving mankind? Now that would be really dumb!
. . . .

LISTER: Just out of interest: Is silicon heaven the same place as human heaven?

KRYTEN: Human heaven? Goodness me! Humans don't go to heaven! No, someone made that up to prevent you all from going nuts!

Red Dwarf, The Last Day, Season 3, Episode 6

--J.D.
 
Eos of the Eons said:
She was thrilled to see me fumble for "god's name". What is god's name? She showed me in the bible that god's name is Jehova.

Just to piggyback on Doctor X's excellent post:

You can claim SHE doesn't know the name of God either. Early Hebrew did not have vowels. So YHVH was the written name of the God whose name must not be pronounced. No one knows what vowels should be placed between the consonants. It came out to be Yahveh.

Genesis 1:1 - "In the beginning, God (blah, blah, blah)..."

The Hebrew - 'God' - translated here is 'Elohim' - which is plural for god and actually should be translated "gods".

What is apparent in Hebrew, but not apparent in King James English is - in the second creation story (beginning at Genesis 2:4) God is referred to by a different name - "Lord God". (This is J speaking)

From Asimov's Guide To The Bible:

The Hebrew word, here translated as "Lord" is made up of four Hebrew letters, which can be written in English as YHVH, and which are expressed traditionally but mistakenly, as "Jehovah"...

The name Jehovah is almost universally accepted by English-speaking Christians as the manner of pronouncing YHVH, but that arose by mistake.

In later history, the Jews grew increasingly reluctant to articulate the actual name of God and it became a habitual gesture of respect with them to substitute for the four consonants wherever they occur the respectful title of "the Lord", which in Hebrew is Adonai

It seems that as the centuries passed and the Jews of later history spread throughout the east and began to speak Aramaic, Babylonian, and Greek, in preference to Hebrew, there grew up the danger that the proper pronunciation of the Biblical language would be forgotten. The Jewish scholars therefore placed little diacritical marks under the Hebrew consonants, indicating the vowel sounds that went with them in each particular word. For YHVH, however, they did not produce the proper diacritical marks since the name was not supposed to be pronounced anyway. Instead. they wrote the diacritical marks for Adonai, the word that was supposed to be pronounced. Sometime during the Middle Ages, a Christian scholar, supposing that the vowels of Adonai belonged with the consonants YHVH, wrote out the name in full as Jehovah.

So you see - your friend is wrong.
 
Whoa. Is that compilation mostly showing what a confused mess the old testament is when it comes to sorting out gods? Is Yahweh also Jehova/god? I'm thinking this means the hebrew bible was the original from where all others have sprung?

I'm assuming the compilation is showing the origins of the one god from a beginning where there were several?

I just find it all a bit confusing...again. Religion confuses me quite often.

Thanks,

Eos
 
From Exodus:
3:13
And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?

3:14
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
When Moses askes God what his name is, God replies "I am WHO I am", or more appropriately Ehyeh asher ehyeh.

God chooses not to name himself, he calls himself "I AM".

Bottom line: God's name is not Jehova.
 

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