God's children and Humans?

[10001]

long long time ago
a christian Pastor pointed out to me that there were God's children and Humans on earth. And maybe there still are two distict species on earth. He even found me the part in the Bible which says there were humans on earth who were not of decendents of Adam and Eve.

I do not remember the verse of the Bible.

could any of you varify and clarify this?

 

[Dr Adequate]

I think he's talking about nephilim.

 

[10001]

I think he's talking about nephilim.

thanks, very interesting...

 

[UrsulaV]

Some people have suggested (although the theology of this is shaky at best) that Genesis 4 implies the existence of other humans in the land east of Eden, since Cain had a wife and built a city (which, if there hadn't been other humans around, would have been for three people) and the "mark of cain" is so that no one who finds him will kill him, implying that there are enough people around that wouldn't know the story that he might be in danger. Since if there were no other humans, the whole human population at that point would consist of Adam, Eve, Cain, and his unnamed sister/wife, this would be a pretty dramatic precaution.

The question of who Cain married is kind of a tricky one all around.

But if the question is about the "sons of God" then yeah, that's probably the Nephilim.

 

[Genesius]

That may have been true way back when. However, if the Bible is true everyone but Noah & his kin were wiped out in the Flood. So even if there were once another branch of humanity, there ain't no more. . .

 

[ChristineR]

Some people have suggested (although the theology of this is shaky at best) that Genesis 4 implies the existence of other humans in the land east of Eden, since Cain had a wife and built a city (which, if there hadn't been other humans around, would have been for three people) and the "mark of cain" is so that no one who finds him will kill him, implying that there are enough people around that wouldn't know the story that he might be in danger. Since if there were no other humans, the whole human population at that point would consist of Adam, Eve, Cain, and his unnamed sister/wife, this would be a pretty dramatic precaution.

The question of who Cain married is kind of a tricky one all around.

But if the question is about the "sons of God" then yeah, that's probably the Nephilim.

The usual creationist explanation for this is that by the time Cain got around to killing Abel, Adam and Eve already had 100 (100*1) children and 8000 (80*100) grandchildren and 48,000 (60*8000) great-grandchildren...something like that. So Cain could have married one of his great-grand nieces without feeling too incestuous. Nonetheless, somebody married his sister at some point, unless you go with the idea that there was a non-Adamic race of humans from outside of Eden somewhere.

A lot of ink has been spent on this because it fits well with the symbolic interpretation of the Garden of Eden story where Adam and Eve are born homo erectus but make the leap of abstract moral thought and officially become homo sapiens. Naturally their children would marry erectus but parent sapiens.

And the idea of a second class human species not quite as important to God has also proved popular, causing much ink to be spilled concerning Nephilim, descendents of Lilith, Neanderthals and even Elves. It's also popular among racists.

 

[Dr Adequate]

That may have been true way back when. However, if the Bible is true everyone but Noah & his kin were wiped out in the Flood. So even if there were once another branch of humanity, there ain't no more. . .

To be fair, Genesis 6:4 says : "The Nephilim were on the earth in those days— and also afterward —when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown."

So long as the "sons of god" were not killed in the Flood, they could have mated with post-diluvian women.

 

[Genesius]

To be fair, Genesis 6:4 says : "The Nephilim were on the earth in those days— and also afterward —when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown."

So long as the "sons of god" were not killed in the Flood, they could have mated with post-diluvian women.

Sorry, that's not what the Bible says. Genesis 7:17-23

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][17] And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.

[18] And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.

[19] And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.

[20] Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

[21] And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:

[22] All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.

[23] And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]

If the Nephilim weren't in the Ark, they were SOL.
[/FONT]

 

[ChristineR]

31 But the men who had gone up with him said, "We can't attack those people; they are stronger than we are." 32 And they spread among the Israelites a bad report about the land they had explored. They said, "The land we explored devours those living in it. All the people we saw there are of great size. 33 We saw the Nephilim there (the descendants of Anak come from the Nephilim). We seemed like grasshoppers in our own eyes, and we looked the same to them."

These men were lying cowards who didn't want the Israelites to move in and slaughter the Caananites. But it was at least plausible to claim that there were still Nephilim.

Or maybe whoever wrote this passage just hadn't heard the Noah story....

 

[Dr Adequate]

Sorry, that's not what the Bible says. Genesis 7:17-23

If the Nephilim weren't in the Ark, they were SOL.

No, look, the Nephilim are hybrids between humans and the sons of God.

Just so long as God's kids keep popping down from heaven in pursuit of human tail, this gives you a constant supply of Nephilim.

One wonders where the sons of God have been lately, and whether God approves of their little trips to the seedy side of the cosmos. Maybe they've been grounded.

 

[tkingdoll]

Perhaps they married monkeys.

Incest or monkeys? A Sophie's choice there, glad it's not my religion.

I seem to recall something in Genesis about Adam's sons going to the Land of Nod to find wives. Did I dream that?

 

[Genesius]

No, look, the Nephilim are hybrids between humans and the sons of God.

Just so long as God's kids keep popping down from heaven in pursuit of human tail, this gives you a constant supply of Nephilim.

One wonders where the sons of God have been lately, and whether God approves of their little trips to the seedy side of the cosmos. Maybe they've been grounded.

My fault, I read your earlier post as saying the Nephilim could have been on Earth and survived the Flood. They certainly could have just popped down from Heaven post-Flood for a quick bit of tail.

 

[andyandy]

The concept of gods having sex with human women can be traced back to pre OT pagan beliefs....the first child was often belived to be the offspring of a god who had impregnated the mother in an act of driot de seigneur. in begetting the child, the god's energy had been depleted - and so to replenish this and to ensure the circulation of mana, the first born was to be returned to its divine parent. This meant human sacrifice....something which was common in the pagan world.
(Indeed in the OT when Abraham enlists god's help to allow his wife sarah to conceive, god demands that they must sacrifice their son to him....)

 

[FrankP]

Indeed in the OT when Abraham enlists god's help to allow his wife sarah to conceive, god demands that they must sacrifice their son to him....

Interesting theory. But I think you've gone astray with the Abraham/Sarah reference.

Abraham doesn't enlist divine help, Yahweh announces to him that Sarah will bear a son, at which Abraham is pretty surprised. There are two versions, Genesis chs 17 and 18. In the first one (from the Pentateuch source E), it is a sign of Elohim's covenant with Abraham, and all the males in Abraham's household have to get circumcised.

The instruction to sacrifice Isaac is later, ch 22. In fact, Isaac is the son that was conceived by Sarah after the previous episode. Yahweh asks this of Abraham in order to test him (22:1), but doesn't let him go through with it and supplies a ram instead. Many see this as arguing against the practice of human sacrifice.

 

[Silly Green Monkey]

An analysis of the Pentateuch reveals different authors. One wrote the story of the sacrifice of Isaac, another one inserted the finding of the ram. If you notice, Isaac does not leave the site, Abraham is mentioned alone. That author also never mentions the boy again.

Doctor X (skepticforum) has a huge essay on this subject, chronicling the change from sacrificing the firstborn of everything to redeeming the firstborn of everything and condemning sacrifice to insisting that Yahweh never demanded firstborn sacrifices in the first place.

 

[andyandy]

An analysis of the Pentateuch reveals different authors.

yeah....its really interesting isnt it? Biblical scholars believe that there were at least 4....

the two main ones ("J" and "E") even refer to god differently - Yahweh and Elohim.....

J's god is relatively informal and approachable - Abraham sees three strangers approaching his tent, invites them in to eat - and whilst talking discovers that they are in fact god and his two angels...

E's god is much more formal and less anthropomorphic....in his accounts god speaks to abraham through angels....

there's so many contradictions in the bible its a wonder anyone would believe its the word of god.....unless you accept that god is rather indecisive - and often changes his mind - something which an omnipotent being shouldnt really have to do

 

[slingblade]

The usual creationist explanation for this is that by the time Cain got around to killing Abel, Adam and Eve already had 100 (100*1) children and 8000 (80*100) grandchildren and 48,000 (60*8000) great-grandchildren...something like that.

But where did the 8000 grandchildren come from? I mean, who cares by that point who Cain married when it's pretty obvious his 99 brothers and sisters weren't having any trouble with the arrangements.....

 

[David Swidler]

But where did the 8000 grandchildren come from? I mean, who cares by that point who Cain married when it's pretty obvious his 99 brothers and sisters weren't having any trouble with the arrangements.....

My guess is that's not the point; Cain's story isn't history, it's meant to illustrate certain aspects of an individual's relationship with God.

As for the Nephilim, it's possible the spies exaggerated. Political agendas have a way of skewing perception...

 

[Beerina]

The usual creationist explanation for this is that by the time Cain got around to killing Abel, Adam and Eve already had 100 (100*1) children and 8000 (80*100) grandchildren and 48,000 (60*8000) great-grandchildren...something like that. So Cain could have married one of his great-grand nieces without feeling too incestuous. Nonetheless, somebody married his sister at some point, unless you go with the idea that there was a non-Adamic race of humans from outside of Eden somewhere.

Well, not necessarily true. Eve could have let large numbers of her sons nail her, and then her sons, including Cain, could have merely married their half-sisters.

Actually, my mom explained this all to me when I was little -- as Adam and Eve were direct products of God, there were no genetic flaws. Hence siblings bearing children together would have suffered no risk of genetic defects. Hence there was no reason for it to be considered wrong.

And the defects just cropped up later on.

 

[Beerina]

Sorry, that's not what the Bible says. Genesis 7:17-23
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]

If the Nephilim weren't in the Ark, they were SOL.
[/FONT]

They were, of course, not men technically, so they didn't have to all die in the big flood. That's another way around this dilemma.

...but that opens up the idea that angels, fallen or otherwise, or some other kind of supernatural beings were going around doinking mortal women. Which I'm fine with, but strict Christians who believe in God, angels, fallen angels (which include the Devil), and humans, and that's it, cannot conceive of other existing supernatural beings, and certainly if they are not of Yahweh's pantheon.

Of course, that's not what really happened. Ancient stories existed that were culturally well-known and believed. So you're a religion trying to establish itself, and there's these claims floating around. What do do? What to do? Hmm...ok, either disclaim them, or lob out a reference to them to bring them "into the fold of Judaism". The ancient redactor...chose poorly.