God vs Satan?

[tmackean]

Right, I'm no expert on religion, but as I understand it one general theme of Christianity is that there are two powerful forces, good and evil. Here's my wonderfully simplistic and (probably) erroneous expression of this belief;

Good is represented by an omnipotent, omniscient "father figure" who created EVERYTHING. It's called God. If you choose the path of goodness, then when you die, your soul gets to go to a wonderful place called heaven.

Evil is represented by an Angel called Lucifer who fell out of favour with God and was cast out of heaven. He made his own domain, and now battles with God for the souls of humankind by encouraging badness. If you choose the path of evil, you get to go to his place - HELL - where you will suffer for all eternity.

OK, maybe I'm getting this all wrong, because I can't get it to make sense. Here's my problem; if God is all-powerful, why does he continue to suffer the existence of Lucifer? Surely he could just do away with him and end the suffering of all those poor souls who are trapped within his infernal demesne.

The only reason I can think for the continued existence of Satan is that God ALLOWS Satan to continue running Hell, but isn't it profoundly disturbing that a deity billed as all-merciful, loving and kind could allow you to be condemed for all of time to unimaginable agony?

Either God ISN'T all powerful, or he ISN'T that loving, yet the Christians I talk to portray him clearly as BOTH.

Some mistake, surely?

 

[TragicMonkey]

Either God ISN'T all powerful, or he ISN'T that loving, yet the Christians I talk to portray him clearly as BOTH.

Some mistake, surely?

Think about it like this: Is anybody going to tell Superman, to his face, what a big dumb jerk he is?

 

[Bikewer]

You can't knock these ideas down with simple, staightforward logic. Don't you know that it's sinful to try to know the "Mind Of God"? Why, intellectual Christian apologists have written reams of gobbedygook explaining these things.

 

[icantlogoff]

When i was a JW, it was explained as a sovereignty issue. Namely Satan's challenge at the beginning was that man didn't need God (the whole garden of Eden thing and the tree). So the point/challenge that Satan put forward was just that, so since then god removed his protection, and allowed man to take his own course, now as it was explained all the suffering/illness etc, is down to god being proved right that man can not rule himself.

Anyway that is how it was explained to me back then.

regards

Steve

 

[tmackean]

Think about it like this: Is anybody going to tell Superman, to his face, what a big dumb jerk he is?

Ah! I've often wondered if true Christians love their God or are just too afraid to express otherwise. However, if God can see into the hearts and minds of man, he already knows that is feared - so what's the point in pretending otherwise?

Are there clearly defines rules for what constitutes a win for the devil or for the angels? I hope it's not all done by commandments - I've broken so many of those, I've lost count, and I continue to break them all the time. In fact, it's less than five minutes since I broke my last commandment, and I'll do a few more before the end of the day.

 

[tmackean]

Satan's challenge at the beginning was that man didn't need God (the whole garden of Eden thing and the tree). So the point/challenge that Satan put forward was just that, so since then god removed his protection, and allowed man to take his own course, now as it was explained all the suffering/illness etc, is down to god being proved right that man can not rule himself.

So... God allows all the suffering over some divine spat with his ex-best pal?

 

[fuelair]

Since its' all fairytales anyway, let's go for the hard reality. The people who built up this silliness over a rather long time needed something to put a little kick into the "be good" (do what we tell you) thing so they invented Satan/Lucifer/ the boogeyman (well, the boogyman is real - but that's another story) and Hell/Sheol to scare the people who might not just grab for the "be good,heaven" part for goodness sake into grabbing for it out of fear. Doesn't work all that well but.....

 

[Foster Zygote]

So... God allows all the suffering over some divine spat with his ex-best pal?

As illustrated in microcosm by his hazing of Job.

Steven

 

[TragicMonkey]

Satan is God's roommate. He's a bit of a pill, and doesn't pay the bills on time, but he's fun to have around sometimes, and God can't manage the rent on his own. So he puts up with the dirty socks lying in the living room, and the dishes in the sink, and Satan's constantly using his shampoo. For God's sake, it's the $2.99 Food Lion knockoff of Pert Plus, which is itself hardly the premier of shampoos. Why the hell can't he buy his own? He's practically bald anyway!!!

 

[Dave1001]

It's not that complicated. God wants us to obey him and love him due to free choice, rather than coercion. As for whether or not God is all-merciful, all-loving, and all-kind, let's leave it at this: that's what God WANTS us to say that he is. I think the logic on this point is internally consistent.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Satan is God's roommate. He's a bit of a pill, and doesn't pay the bills on time, but he's fun to have around sometimes, and God can't manage the rent on his own. So he puts up with the dirty socks lying in the living room, and the dishes in the sink, and Satan's constantly using his shampoo. For God's sake, it's the $2.99 Food Lion knockoff of Pert Plus, which is itself hardly the premier of shampoos. Why the hell can't he buy his own? He's practically bald anyway!!!

To all: The above is even funnier if you hum or whistle the theme from The Odd Couple while reading it.

Steven

 

[CplFerro]

Either God ISN'T all powerful, or he ISN'T that loving, yet the Christians I talk to portray him clearly as BOTH.

Some mistake, surely?

Dear p,

It all comes down to Justice. God's perfect justice is infinitely offended by even an infinitesimal sin, and thus "requires" infinite punishment to assuage. The answer is simply that God loves his own justice more than he does sinners, and so he is willing to do anything whatever to sinners in order to satisfy himself. While this is ongoing, amidst the endless screaming, he tells them that this is "what they really wanted by choosing to reject his love."

His power and love are infinite, but they are ruled by justice.

Cpl Ferro

 

[SusanB-M1]

God v Satan ...both just words, given to human concepts, so I can't get any further than that!

 

[elaine]

As illustrated in microcosm by his hazing of Job.

Steven

That's best description of the account I've ever heard.

 

[icantlogoff]

So... God allows all the suffering over some divine spat with his ex-best pal?

I know it is totally stupid.

This was one of the main reason i started to question everything, the fact that is you look at the whole Satan and God thing, they do seem pals. Almost a way to kick people into line. What is wrong and hence the work of Satan is always defined by peoples own perception... I was told constantly that listen to the Band Marillion was demonic music! and we all know its was Britney Spears that is the one.

People see some sort of demonic vision and they run or pray to God , seems to be a self defeating exercise for Satan in my own view, unless he is in league with God.

But I don't believe in either of these Bible Characters

regards

Steve

 

[Ausmerican]

Think about it like this: Is anybody going to tell Superman, to his face, what a big dumb jerk he is?

Batman would and has. And hey Batman even looks a little like Satan. Maybe Big G keeps his old homey around to keep him level headed. Now if only his followers had someone like that....

 

[clarsct]

http://skepticalcommunity.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=12056&start=40

At the top of page 2 of this thread, I have outlined the entire problem, of which this is merely a facet.

I hope you find it interesting.

 

[JayT]

The Bible Says Your Fate Is Predetermined

It's not that complicated. God wants us to obey him and love him due to free choice, rather than coercion. As for whether or not God is all-merciful, all-loving, and all-kind, let's leave it at this: that's what God WANTS us to say that he is. I think the logic on this point is internally consistent.

Some authorities on the Bible disagree:

predestination

God's pre-arranged intentions for the destiny of human beings. Because of the history of this concept in Christian theology (e.g. by Augustine and Calvin), it is associated with the idea of an inscrutable God who from eternity had decided that some are to be ‘saved’ and others ‘condemned’.

A Dictionary of the Bible 1997, originally published by Oxford University Press 1997

Free will according to the Bible is:
Believe in me totally with no evidence at all or I will destroy and torture you for all eternity. The choice is yours. In other words, you have free will.

Free will does NOT involve threats of doom, death and damnation for lack of blind, unreasoning faith, to force someone by morbid fear and terror into choosing what you want them to do, or else. That's loving, kind and merciful? If so, I'd hate to see God in a bad mood. I must be missing something. Without fear and terror as their foundation, religions would have no power to control people - and they know it too and capitalise on it to the max - right up to this very moment.

That is called threats or coercion.

threat // n.

A declaration of an intention to punish or hurt.

I think the destructive qualities of religion infinitely outweighs its benefits. Unless history is all a lie.

God cannot, nor deserves to be trusted.

Ezekiel 14:9

And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet.

So why should I trust anything his prophets say after reading that?

or

Titus 1:2

In hope of eternal life, which GOD, THAT CANNOT LIE, promised before the world began. (emphasis added).

But prophets who are wrong are to be put to death - the bible says so - does that mean even if God made them wrong by lying to them too, and how would anyone know?

Isaiah 6:5

For mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.

1 John 4:12

No man hath seen God at any time.

Is that logic internally consistent?

First he's a liar, then he cannot lie. A man saw God with his own eyes and then nobody has ever seen him. But the bible never contradicts. Mere samples of countless more diametric contradictions that the disease of blind, unreasoning belief will deliberately not see but honest intelligence can plainly see.

And that's only the tiny tip of a very dirty iceberg.

Good grief!

Nuff, said.

 

[Beerina]

Either God ISN'T all powerful, or he ISN'T that loving, yet the Christians I talk to portray him clearly as BOTH.

Some mistake, surely?

Think about it like this: Is anybody going to tell Superman, to his face, what a big dumb jerk he is?

Guilty!

And an infinitely powerful, all-knowing, perfectly good being is merely the ultimate result of religious one-upsmanship in a "my god can beat up your god" battle for dominance.

See the Bible, for example, which still has remnants of this, such as Pharoah's priest turning a stick into two snakes, but Moses turns his stick into one, which eats both of them, thus demonstrating the god of the Jews is greater than the god of the B14ch3n 3gyp41nz.

...who actually exists, according to the Bible.

 

[Beerina]

Dear p,

It all comes down to Justice. God's perfect justice is infinitely offended by even an infinitesimal sin, and thus "requires" infinite punishment to assuage. The answer is simply that God loves his own justice more than he does sinners, and so he is willing to do anything whatever to sinners in order to satisfy himself. While this is ongoing, amidst the endless screaming, he tells them that this is "what they really wanted by choosing to reject his love."

His power and love are infinite, but they are ruled by justice.

Cpl Ferro

Chef said it best...

Stan : "Why would God let Kenny die, Chef? Why? Kenny's my friend. Why can't God take someone else's friend?"

Chef : "Stan, sometimes God takes those closest to us, because it makes him feel better about himself. He is a very vengeful God, Stan. He's all pissed off about something we did thousands of years ago. He just can't get over it, so he doesn't care who he takes. Children, puppies, it don't matter to him, so long as it makes us sad. Do you understand?"

Stan : "But then, why does God give us anything to start with?"

Chef : "Well, look at it this way: if you want to make a baby cry, first you give it a lollipop. Then you take it away. If you never give it a lollipop to begin with, then you would have nothin' to cry about. That's like God, who gives us life and love and help just so that he can tear it all away and make us cry, so he can drink the sweet milk of our tears. You see, it's our tears, Stan, that give God his great power."


...don't you agree? Unless you have a better explaination.