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God Proven to Exist According to Mainline Physics

This may be off-topic, since 90% of the physics discussed here is far beyond me, but the phrase "infinite number of universes" has been bandied about as if it is a working theory.

If this is a possibility, then wouldn't it be certain that (at least) one of those universes was created by and is run by what we consider to be a traditional definition of God? Or am I misusing the implications of the theory?

(To expand on this, and assuming I'm using the concept of "infinite" right, that may mean that there also exists a universe in which God exists and I am His Son, sent to redeem the people as the Messiah. Cool.)

Note that nothing says it has to be this universe.
 
NobbyNobbs said:
This may be off-topic, since 90% of the physics discussed here is far beyond me, but the phrase "infinite number of universes" has been bandied about as if it is a working theory.

If this is a possibility, then wouldn't it be certain that (at least) one of those universes was created by and is run by what we consider to be a traditional definition of God? Or am I misusing the implications of the theory?

(To expand on this, and assuming I'm using the concept of "infinite" right, that may mean that there also exists a universe in which God exists and I am His Son, sent to redeem the people as the Messiah. Cool.)

Note that nothing says it has to be this universe.
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If we assume a literally infinite number of universes, I don't see a problem with the idea that you are the son of god(somewhere).

I think that most of the "science and physics" in Tipler's argument are related to the Omega Point computing entity existing, or us existing in a simulated universe. None of it has much to do at all with his fantasy/guess/delusion that this AI would be the Judeo-Christian God, and that Jesus was effectively Neo minus the black sunglasses and trenchcoat.
 
Why am I so strongly reminded of the following, possibly apocryphal, story:

The encylopedist Denis Diderot once paid a visit to the Russian Court at the invitation of the empress, Catherine the Great. He conversed very freely, and gave the younger members of the court circle a good deal of lively atheism. The empress did not like to put a direct muzzle on her guest's tongue, so the following plot was contrived. Diderot was informed that a learned mathematician was in possession of an algebraical demonstration of the existence of God and would present it before the Court, if he desired to hear it.

Diderot gladly consented. The mathematician was Euler, and he said gravely, and in a tone of perfect conviction: "Monsieur, (a + bn)/n = x, therefore God exists!" Diderot, to whom algebra was Hebrew, was embarassed and disconcerted while peals of laughter rose on all sides. He asked permission to return to France at once, which was granted.
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Except that many of the folks here actually know algebra. ;)
 
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James Redford said:
Whereas with the pace of computer-power progress, combined with the resolution of brain-imaging technologies getting ever finer, we should be able to upload our minds into simulated environments circa 2030: a condition wherein death and poverty will have been abolished and literal heaven on Earth will have been established, since such uploaded minds will never have to experience death again and the simulated environments can consist of anything one can imagine. We already posses matter-antimatter annihilation, which can be used for interstellar travel.
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By 2030, you say? Care to lay money on that?
 
NobbyNobbs said:
This may be off-topic, since 90% of the physics discussed here is far beyond me, but the phrase "infinite number of universes" has been bandied about as if it is a working theory.

If this is a possibility, then wouldn't it be certain that (at least) one of those universes was created by and is run by what we consider to be a traditional definition of God? Or am I misusing the implications of the theory?

(To expand on this, and assuming I'm using the concept of "infinite" right, that may mean that there also exists a universe in which God exists and I am His Son, sent to redeem the people as the Messiah. Cool.)

Note that nothing says it has to be this universe.
Click to expand...
I've never understood the idea that infinite = anything can happen. Even in an infinite number of universes, 2+2 will never = 5, for our definitions of arithmetic. In infinite universes, you will not have intelligent rocks (no structure available for intelligence to occur). Etc.
 
Yeah, I thought there were similarities between the "Omega Point" and the "Singularity".

BTW, how was the purgatory, Hokulele?
 
wollery said:
Given the vagaries of computers, I wouldn't want my mind loaded into something that could crash at any given moment. And to suggest that this would be possible for more than just a handful of humans is wishful thinking of the highest order.
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In any case, is there any basis for the assumption, implicit in this scheme for "immortality", that a simulation of a person running on a computer is actually that person?
 
James Redford,
Some of us are currently high on Percocet, and really are not capable of holding our attention on your long rambling posts.
So for those of us currently in the situation, could you please do the following small favors.

In 3 sentences or less, can you please state your purpose for this thread
In 3 sentences or less, can you please state what you feel Tipler's paper says (or proves)
In 3 sentences or less, can you please state what you feel is the best evidence for this idea of Tiler.

Thanks.
 
roger said:
I've never understood the idea that infinite = anything can happen. Even in an infinite number of universes, 2+2 will never = 5, for our definitions of arithmetic. In infinite universes, you will not have intelligent rocks (no structure available for intelligence to occur). Etc.
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I feel similarly: an infinite count does not necessarily mean infinite variation.
 
James Redford said:
Whereas with the pace of computer-power progress,
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Computer power? Do you even know what you mean by that?

combined with the resolution of brain-imaging technologies getting ever finer,
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It doesn't matter how fine the resolution gets. The brain is so complex, we may never understand it, not if we were given a million years. Which we probably won't be.

we should be able to upload our minds into simulated environments circa 2030:
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Excuse me a moment...

(goes into the other room to laugh until covered with drool)

...sorry about that...

No.

a condition wherein death and poverty will have been abolished and literal heaven on Earth will have been established, since such uploaded minds will never have to experience death again and the simulated environments can consist of anything one can imagine.
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Porn. It'll be porn.

We already posses matter-antimatter annihilation, which can be used for interstellar travel.
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All the particle accelerators in the world would take thousands of years to produce enough anti-matter to illuminate a light bulb.

But I'm sure by 2030 they will have doubled, perhaps tripled production!
 
James Redford said:
Rather, X--the Omega Point--is equivalent to God, therefore X is God.

Regarding the equivalence of God and the Omega Point: the Omega Point is omniscient, having an infinite amount of information and knowing all that is logically possible to be known; it is omnipotent, having an infinite amount of energy and power; and it is omnipresent, consisting of all that exists. As well, as Stephen Hawking proved, the singularity is not in spacetime, but rather is the boundary of space and time (see S. W. Hawking and G. F. R. Ellis, The Large Scale Structure of Space-Time [London: Cambridge University Press, 1973], pp. 217-221). So the Omega Point is transcendent to, yet immanent in, space and time.

Additionally, the cosmological singularity consists of a three-part structure: the final singularity (i.e., the Omega Point), the all-presents singularity (which exists at all times at the edge of the multiverse), and the initial singularity (i.e., the beginning of the Big Bang). These three distinct parts which perform different physical functions in bringing about and sustaining existence are actually one singularity which connects the entirety of the multiverse.

And given an infinite amount of computational resources, per the Bekenstein Bound, recreating the exact quantum state of our present universe is trivial, requiring at most a mere 10^123 bits (the number which Roger Penrose calculated), or at most a mere 2^10^123 bits for every different quantum configuration of the universe logically possible (i.e., the multiverse in its entirety up to this point in universal history). So the Omega Point will be able to resurrect us using merely an infinitesimally small amount of total computational resources: indeed, the multiversal resurrection will occur between 10^-10^10 and 10^-10^123 seconds before the Omega Point is reached, as the computational capacity of the universe at that stage will be great enough that doing so will require only a trivial amount of total computational resources.

So to recapitulate:

1.) The Omega Point (or, for that matter, the society near the Omega Point) can trivially perform the universal resurrection of the dead, upon which the people resurrected can live eternally in literal heaven, i.e., paradise.
2.) The Omega Point is omniscient.
3.) The Omega Point is omnipresent.
4.) The Omega Point is omnipotent.
5.) The cosmological singularity is a triune structure, of which the Omega Point is one component.
6.) The cosmological singularity is transcendent to, yet immanent in, space and time.
7.) The cosmological singularity is the only achieved (actually existing) infinity.
8.) The Omega Point creates the universe and all of existence.

Those are all the physical properties that have been claimed for God in traditional Christian theology. There are many other congruities between the Omega Point cosmology and Christianity. Below are listed just some of them:

1.) We are gods: John 10:34 (Jesus is quoting Psalm 82:6).
2.) We are God and God is us: Matthew 25:31-46.
3.) We live inside of God: Acts 17:24-28.
4.) God is everything and inside of everything: Colossians 3:11; Jeremiah 23:24.
5.) We are members in the body of Christ: Romans 12:4,5; 1 Corinthians 6:15-19; 12:12-27; Ephesians 4:25.
6.) We are one in Christ: Galatians 3:28.
7.) God is all: Ephesians 1:23; 4:4-6.
8.) God is light: 1 John 1:5; John 8:12.
9.) We have existed before the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:34; Luke 1:70; 11:50; Ephesians 1:4; 2 Timothy 1:9; Isaiah 40:21.
10.) Jesus has existed before the foundation of the world: John 17:24; Revelation 13:8.
11.) The reality of multiple worlds: Hebrews 1:1,2; 11:3.
12.) God is the son of man: Matthew 8:20; 9:6; 10:23; 11:19; 12:18; 12:32; 12:40; 13:37; 13:41; 16:13; 16:27,28; 17:9; 17:12; 17:22; 18:11; 19:28; 20:18; 20:28; 24:27; 24:30; 24:37; 24:39; 24:44; 25:13; 25:31; 26:2; 26:24; 26:45; 26:64. (This is just listing how many times Jesus referred to himself as the Son of Man in the Gospel of Matthew, althought he refers to himself as this throughout the Gospels. It was the favorite phrase that he used to refer to himself.)

How item Nos. 9 and 10 relate is that within Prof. Tipler's Omega Point Theory the universe is brought into being by the Omega Point, as the end-state of the universe causally brings about the beginning state, i.e., the Big Bang singularity (since in physics it's just as accurate to say that causation goes from future to past events: viz., the principle of least action; and unitarity). Another way of stating it is that in the Omega Point cosmology, the Omega Point is the fundamental existential and mathematical entity, from which all of reality derives. Indeed, within the Omega Point Theory, the Big Bang singularity and the Omega Point singularity are actually just different functions of the same singularity. Further, anything which at any time will exist will simply be a subset of what is rendered in the Omega Point.
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When did the bible become mainline physics?
 
aggle-rithm said:
The brain is so complex, we may never understand it, not if we were given a million years. Which we probably won't be.
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I disagree with this.

I think that so long as we don't destroy ourselves, or get pwned by some cosmic event, a million years would be waaaaay more than enough.
 
X said:
Worship me.






That's what theMark pointed out. Worship me.






As I understand it, the Omega point would only be able to simulate people who have lived before. Would the simulations know they were simulations? I don't know, I don't care, all that the question can bring is long-winded arguments about nothing that can be proven to exist.






Then the Omega point is logically impossible.






I agree with PixyMisa: nonsense.






I agree with PixyMisa: incoherent.






No... It just thinks it's infinite.
I agree with PixyMisa: nonsense.






Huh? The Omega point, created by the collapse of the universe (which is, to put it mildly, a poorly-supported supposition) creates the universe in turn?
So we all live in a universe created by circular reasoning?



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Worship me.
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I'd love to worship you X, however as soon as you are defined you lose your universality.
 
This is what happens, kids, whenever you mainline physics.

Next thing you know, you'll be freebasing the stuff, and then you not only think you've proven God's existence, you think you're God.
 
tsig said:
I'd love to worship you X, however as soon as you are defined you lose your universality.
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Not if I'm defined as something that exists.

As has been done.


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Worship me.
 
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