God is smart, powerful, and good? No.

[elliotfc]

Re: ten commandments

>>>>>But these days, Judaism has 100's of laws. There are, in fact, a set of about 17, (not sure of the number anymore), laws which are written for non-Jews to practice. (Look up "Hashidic Gentile" -- you are also supposed to worship Israel). My favorite one is "you shall not eat the limb of an animal while the rest of the animal is still alive". My mind races at the thought of what act could have prompted the need for that law! Was this a pre-refrigeration act? We'll have leg of lamb today and leave the lamb hopping around on 3 legs until next time. -- I'm not making fun of the law, I think that if you choose to believe in that religion, you should definitely follow those laws. I'm just relating it in a light-hearted manner so some people don't get too bored.<<<<<

There are so many different sects of Judaism.

With Jesus, the law became a human being. The specific laws of the O.T. were how you would treat a little kid, which is what the Jews were. It was an infantile religion. The people had to be set apart from other people. It was a phase. I think you can be a religious person and not follow the letter of the biblical law.

-Elliot

 

[elliotfc]

Re: Re: Re: God is smart, powerful, and good? No.

>>>>>But it's that way because God wants it that way.<<<<<

You're right. God wanted to create creatures who had the option to reject him.

>>>>>He's the creator, remember, and omnipotent: so you can't appeal to random fate to explain why things are the way they are. They are that way because God explicitly desired them to be that way.<<<<<

I'm not appealing to random fate. God did desire his creatures to have free will. And he decided he would not abandon his creation, you know, the whole Jesus thing.

>>>>>If you believe in an omnipotent, omnibenevolent, omniscient creator God, I don't think you are entitled to use the phrase, "that's just the way it is."<<<<<

God's way is just the way it is. The way it is isn't contingent upon how I want it to be. It's only contingent on the way it is.

-Elliot

 

[elliotfc]

>>>>>My reasoning is based on the idea that the assumption that the world is "as good as God can make it." is hogwash.<<<<<

Right. The world is NOT as good as God can make it.

>>>>>If God is omnipotent, he can do absolutely anything he pleases, including eliminating all forms of pain.<<<<<

Pain is a consequence of rejecting God. To eliminate pain, he would have to eliminate the possibility of rejecting God. But creative beings have the option of rejecting God. He can eliminate pain, but that would eliminate all creatures.

>>>>>Pain exists, therefore God is either not omnipotent, not omniscient, not omnibenevolent, or does not exist.<<<<<

Or content to allow his creatures to experience pain by rejecting Him.

Of course there is another kind of pain, the temporary pain of simply being alive on a fallen world. And God experienced this temporary pain by becoming Jesus. Pain is significant, but the cliche is no pain, no gain, right?

>>>>>Scientifically, we ascertain why pain exists. But if God is all-powerful and all-knowing, certainly he could find a work-around.<<<<<

He did, the salvific act.

>>>>>Finally, the notion "3. Premise : This world does *not* contain 'the best possible amount of good'" is defendable precisely because a single person can perceive that it is true. If god is all-powerful, he should have the ability to disallow any form of evil.<<<<<

He does. He could destory all of his created creatures.

-Elliot

 

[Yahweh]

I can't prove the existence of God. I'm not even sure what God is. I can't prove whether God exists, or doesn't exist. All I have is an intuitive sense that there is a God, as do countless millions/billions people who have existed. Maybe that means nothing. But I suspect that it does mean something, since the debate is an age-old one.

Thats not necessarily a good form of reasoning. Intuitive senses (or Inner Convictions) dont constitute as a very good tool to justify a belief. There is a whole psychology behind religion, the psychology is roughly rooted in fear (of punishment) and reward (for acting good) That sounds a lot like the psychology behind religion has a great deal to do with selfishness, but thats just me being cynical. In any sense, many people have a problem rationalizing faith and religion. Random Example: If billions of people believed trees had souls or perhaps with a little work, we can turn water into gold, does it make it any more true? No.

 

[Jesse2]

We killed the incarnate God for three days, yes.

We didn't vote to crucify Jesus. The jews did.

Our bodily insufficiency is a consequence of original sin. Free will exists independent of original sin, so I would say that you're mixing them up with each other..

Regardless, how could original sin exist without God allowing it to? If original sin exists, it can only exist by God's will. Satan can only exist by God's will. Therefore, Satan is God's pet.

Call it a poor system of information dispersal if you want, but there have been a few billion Christians on the planet in the past 2000 years.

How do you know who a real christian is? Are the boy-molesting catholic priests real christians? Are the serial-killers who find 'Jesus' in prison real christians? Am I a christian? Do you believe I am a christian purely because I tell you I am?

 

[c4ts]

We didn't vote to crucify Jesus. The jews did.

But don't forget, back then Christians were considered Jews.

 

[evildave]

Well, I certainly will take your word for it.

You say you're a Christian, you're a Christian.

I'm not here to establish the standards for what a Real Christian (TM) is. That's for competing brands of Real Christians (TM) to kill each other over.

Leave me out of it.

So, yes. The child molesting ones and criminals and the saintly ones who do wonderful work are all Christians alike. Some just seem to "sin" more than others (in my opinion, given my definitions for "sin"). They're probably forgiven if they ask for it. Unless they're not. That's one of the central reasons why I don't establish "standards" for Christians. They all believe different things.

 

[Jesse2]

But don't forget, back then Christians were considered Jews.

Yes, and the statement was not meant to slur jews today. I wasn't back then, and neither were they. So "we" did not crucify him.

 

[Jesse2]

Well, I certainly will take your word for it.

You say you're a Christian, you're a Christian.

But how do you know I've really accepted christ into my heart? I could be lying or just plain wrong. And so could millions of others.

 

[ntech]

Well, You say you're a Christian, you're a Christian.

You say that like it's a good thing.

 

[Loki]

elliotfc,

I don't have the time to cover everything...

Given the premises I accept, I don't think the Trinity is illogical.

I would like to hear these premises. Please continue.

Our human bodies are genetically programmed to die. Some will die sooner than others. Our bodily insufficiency is a consequence of original sin. Free will exists independent of original sin, so I would say that you're mixing them up with each other.

I don't think I'm confusing these things, but perhaps you need to tease them apart for me. So there are two causes of suffering - suffering as a result of our free will choices, and suffering as a result of original sin? Is that what you're saying? The child falls into the second category? Cancer is an 'outcome' of original sin?

Anyone who doesn't want to be with God eternally will be allowed to not be with God. People choose their own punishments, that is true justice.

But you're changing the question that we humans face - it's not "Do you Loki wish to spend eternity with God?". Instead, it's "Are you Loki prepared to accept the existence of a poorly defined concept called 'god' on faith alone?". Do you seriously think that if god was to prove his existence to me absolutely, and show me that his nature truly is benevolent, that I'd choose to live apart from him? The point is, the punishment ("living apart from god for eternity") is meted out simply because I choose to use my ability to reason to decide that god seems unlikely.

I guess you probably think that a decision to embrace the christian god is more "pure" if taken without evidence. If that's the case, then I have to wonder why god worked so hard to convince Moses and his buddies that god was for real, and why Jesus felt the need to perform "miracles" in order to build a following.

And as side note - gee, how dumb were the Hebrews! God slaughters an entire generation of Egyptians, then drowns the entire army, and as soon as Moses ducks off for a quick chat to the big guy the Hebrews fall into Paganism! Slow learners...

(I wrote) : Well, we mere humans don't think it is just to punish the son for the sins of the father, yet the christian god does.

(elliotfc wrote) : Do you know the Christian God better than I do? I have no idea what you are talking about here. It isn't punishment. The world is fallen, sin is everywhere. Bad things happen because evil reigns, not because God causes bad things to happen. Again, where do you get this idea about the Christian God?

Where did I get this idea? Well, here :

Exodus 12:29
And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.

The crime here is Pharaohs pride and intransigence (let's leave aside the issue of god hardening Pharaoh's heart).

Who commited the crime? Pharaoh.

Who carried out the sentence? The LORD.

Who paid the penalty? Pharaoh's son - and the children of everyone, including servants, farmers, and every average run-of-the-mill Egyptian. Oh, and the cattle!!

Is there some confusion here? Exodus is true, isn't it? Or is it allegorical?

Of course, as a Catholic, it isn't just about scripture. We don't even read the Bible you know.

Cool, a Catholic!!! You really need to start talking to "Christian" - you can start by explaining baptism...

If existence is only the human lifespan, it is meaningless. But Christains don't believe that.

Neither do I. You need to realise (or perhaps you don't!) that "the meaning of life" is not an exclusively christian, or even exclusively theist, concept. Have you investigated Secular Humanism at all?

(regarding souls) : I'm not sure about the whole "where" questions. The will is associated with a human body, but I think temporal locality misses the point. The will is not a tangible object, nor is the soul. It is associated with a body, but the association may be, literally, neither here not there.

How are souls created? What determines the 'properties' of a soul? If the soul is a 'decision-maker' (the power-cell of the Will) then can god build a soul that can make decisions he can't predict? If he *can* predict the set of all possible decisions a soul can make, then in what way are the decisions not ultimately "created by god"?

Anyway, I think I need to get going ... keen to hear about the trinity premises!

 

[Jesse2]

The point is, the punishment ("living apart from god for eternity") is meted out simply because I choose to use my ability to reason to decide that god seems unlikely.

You're softening it down. The punishment is eternal damnation in hell. Remember that.

BTW, I enjoy the moses/pharoh references. I forgot about how yhwh deliberately 'hardened the heart' of the pharoh. What gives there? The poor pharoh didn't have a chance! LOL!

 

[Jesse2]

The revelation of God to humanity happened in phases. In those times everyone believed in gods. People died over which god was stronger. In order to persuade a tribe of people about certain ideas, and set the stages for the salvific act, God told the Jews that he was the true God, the most superior God, and then he proved it. He did it to make humanity understand. The Bible is the story of the evolution of human understanding about God.

So God had first to be a jealous and angry god and kill lots of people, to show that he was God? He couldn't figure out a better way, like simply coming down from the heavans in a bright light in front of everyone on the planet saying, "I am God, and I am going to kick your asses unless you get them in gear." I'm just a dumbass (c4ts said so!) human, and even I can think of that!

 

[ntech]

So God had first to be a jealous and angry god and kill lots of people, to show that he was God? He couldn't figure out a better way, like simply coming down from the heavans in a bright light in front of everyone on the planet saying, "I am God, and I am going to kick your asses unless you get them in gear." I'm just a dumbass (c4ts said so!) human, and even I can think of that!

It’s true; if those folks would just step back and just look at all that is written in the bible they might see how ridiculous it really is. The thing reads like a really bad B movie.

I re-read genesis recently and could hardly stop my self from laughter on the commuter train.

 

[elliotfc]

Hey Yahweh, only have a bit of time so I don't know if I can explain myself compeltely. I'll do my best.

>>>>>Thats not necessarily a good form of reasoning.<<<<<

Necesarily is the correct word to use. It could be good, it could be bad. It is a form of reasoning.

>>>>>Intuitive senses (or Inner Convictions) dont constitute as a very good tool to justify a belief.<<<<<

That's your opinion. If a girl tells me she loves me, I have to use my intuition. The application of intuition will vary from person to person, but everybody uses intuition. Scientists use intuitions while conducting science. Obviously my kind of intuition isn't gonna cut it when I try to justify my beliefs to you. But it is sufficient when I justify my beliefs to others. We all have different standards and different exclusions.

>>>>>There is a whole psychology behind religion, the psychology is roughly rooted in fear (of punishment) and reward (for acting good).<<<<<

Yeah, that's how some people take it. I don't take it that way. I can't speak for other people, or religion in general. Religion doesn't have to be about fear and reward, and the way I think of religion doesn't incorporate fear and reward.

But having said all that, I don't have a problem or issue with some people fixating on fear and reward. We all understand things differently, we all have different levels of emotional and intellectual understanding. I won't fault people for not having the same outlooks I have. If someone decides they want to kill me, but at the last minute change their mind because of fear of imprisonment, I will honestly be thankful for the power of fear!

>>>>>That sounds a lot like the psychology behind religion has a great deal to do with selfishness, but thats just me being cynical.<<<<<

No, you should view religion as you want to. I would suggest that it is quite possible to practice religion and not get into fear and reward, and you can either take my word for it, or disagree. Use your intuition.

>>>>>In any sense, many people have a problem rationalizing faith and religion.<<<<<

I still do.

>>>>>Random Example: If billions of people believed trees had souls or perhaps with a little work, we can turn water into gold, does it make it any more true?<<<<<

No, because reality is not contingent upon belief.

-Elliot

 

[elliotfc]

Hi Jesse. Where in Michigan are you? I used to live in Kalamazoo and Ann Arbor.

>>>>>We didn't vote to crucify Jesus. The jews did. <<<<<

I don't think voting had a heck of a lot to do with it. The "powers that rule" decided to kill Jesus, and that they were Jews is fine, but they were the authority, and I look at it more as the authority was just doing what it could to maintain authority.

>>>>>Regardless, how could original sin exist without God allowing it to?<<<<<

God does allow it to. I never said he didn't allow original sin to exist. I don't know anybody who thinks that God does not allow original sin to exist.

>>>>>If original sin exists, it can only exist by God's will.<<<<<

Not if you mean God's will created original sin. His creatures' wills created original sin. He created the creatures.

>>>>>Satan can only exist by God's will.<<<<<

He used to be known as Lucifer. Yes, he was created. I don't think God's creation can be uncreated. Now there's a corker of a philosophical question that no one has touched on. I suspect that God's creations (creative creators) can't be uncreated, but maybe I'm wrong about that.

>>>>>Therefore, Satan is God's pet.<<<<<

Obviously we have different definitions of pet, it's such a silly idea anyways that I'll give it to you. Satan and God are a complete disconnect, but if you want to see "pet" status in that, fine.

>>>>>How do you know who a real christian is?<<<<<

I don't. What do you mean by real Christian? I think a Christian is just a member of a Christian faith. A Christian can be a total monstrosity of a person and still be a Christian. I don't place any value judgment on Christian. It's just a classification, like doctor or stamp collector. Could be good people, could be bad people.

>>>>>Are the boy-molesting catholic priests real christians?<<<<<

They are Christians. Maybe. Perhaps they personally reject the faith and keep that fact to themselves. I have no idea. The idea of "real" Christian is intriguing. I can't read souls, so I don't know who is real or who is fake. There are some terrific Christians and some horrific Christians.

>>>>>Are the serial-killers who find 'Jesus' in prison real christians? Am I a christian? Do you believe I am a christian purely because I tell you I am?<<<<<

I do believe in being charitable...meaning, I will take people at their word unless I have compelling reasons not to. If a jailed person wants me to believe they are a Christian, I have no problem doing so. Doesn't mean for a second I think that should get them out of jail any earlier than they would. If you tell me that you are a Christian I'll take your word for it. I would follow up by asking you what Christian creed you follow.

-Elliot

 

[Jesse2]

Hi Jesse. Where in Michigan are you? I used to live in Kalamazoo and Ann Arbor.

I live in Harrison Township, which is next door to Mount Clemens. These places are about 30 minutes northeast of Detroit. We just got our power back on late yesterday afternoon.

I don't think voting had a heck of a lot to do with it. The "powers that rule" decided to kill Jesus, and that they were Jews is fine, but they were the authority, and I look at it more as the authority was just doing what it could to maintain authority.

There was an actual vote. The option to vote was standard, and was given out at that time by Pontius Pilate. He asked the jewish crowd if they wished for Jesus to be released, or Barabbas to be released. Barabbas was a known murderer. They voted for Barabbas to be released. It was after this that Pontius Pilate 'washed his hands' of the matter, but sent Jesus to be crucified anyway.

I never said he didn't allow original sin to exist. I don't know anybody who thinks that God does not allow original sin to exist.

>>>>>If original sin exists, it can only exist by God's will.<<<<<

Not if you mean God's will created original sin. His creatures' wills created original sin. He created the creatures.

If God allows original sin, and evil, and Satan to exist, what gives him any right to complain about them? Again, if God is all-knowing and all-poweful, he set into motion everything in existence knowing exactly the outcome. Free will is irrelevant if God knows the exact outcome of granting free will. (Marc said something similiar to this earlier in the thread.) God is more responsble for the creation and perpetuation of evil than any other entity; precisely because he knew what he was creating when he created, and because he is all-powerful and yet allows it to exist

 

[elliotfc]

>>>>>I don't have the time to cover everything...<<<<<<

I know what you're saying, I'm typing as fast as I can myself, so much to do.

>>>>>I would like to hear these premises.<<<<<

Trinity premises:
A Creator God exists.
A "messenger" is needed to translate the creative word into action.
An incarnation of God as man is necessary for salvation of fallen humanity.

If you don't believe those premises, I can't expect you to take anything I say seriously, so this discussion is probably completely pointless, unless you want to understand me. In that case, I've told you my premises, so maybe you can understand me better now.

>>>>>So there are two causes of suffering - suffering as a result of our free will choices, and suffering as a result of original sin? Is that what you're saying? The child falls into the second category? Cancer is an 'outcome' of original sin?<<<<<

Suffering existed before humanity. Suffering exists independently of humanity. The suffering of humanity that is most obviously is the suffering of our physical bodies, the consequence of original sin, or living on a falled world. But a spiritual suffering that humans feel is akin to the suffering that can be felt outside of created humanity, the problem with that is our souls are so connected to our physical bodies that it's basically just the original sin thing. Make sense?

>>>>>But you're changing the question that we humans face - it's not "Do you Loki wish to spend eternity with God?". Instead, it's "Are you Loki prepared to accept the existence of a poorly defined concept called 'god' on faith alone?". Do you seriously think that if god was to prove his existence to me absolutely, and show me that his nature truly is benevolent, that I'd choose to live apart from him?<<<<<

No, I have no doubt that you are rational person. I have no doubt that it was indicated to you that every belief you had was wrong, you would happily embrace the correct beliefs. There would be a period of "cleansing", called Purgatory. The best analogy for Purgatory would be the most painful thing you can imagine, it would be as bad as Hell accept their is hope at the end of Purgatory.

Read Paradise Lost. How could Satan...
Just read Paradise Lost. Great book.

Some people, I am sure you can imagine, will be obstinate and hate God and not want to hear that they were wrong their entire human existence. They will not want to experience the pain of knowing full well how much they have hurt themselves, hurt others, and hurt God. I have no reason to think you are this kind of person, and I'm not going to judge you. However, we can agree that these sorts of persons exist. If you are at war with God, unconsciously or consciously, how easy can it be to just capitulate? That will vary from person to person.

>>>>>The point is, the punishment ("living apart from god for eternity") is meted out simply because I choose to use my ability to reason to decide that god seems unlikely.<<<<<

Well I'm not about to have this word "punishment" be stricken from the conversation, so I'll have to deal with it. Understand, I don't really think of this as punishment.

But I could look at it as the best kind of punishment. With earthly punishment, the person is punished against their will. With divine punishment, the person is punished with their will. Again, God will not force you to live with him for eternity, so have no fear. If you want to live with God for eternity, however, there will be some hoops to jump through. The question is then "do you want to jump through hoops to live with God".

>>>>>I guess you probably think that a decision to embrace the christian god is more "pure" if taken without evidence.<<<<<

Oh yes. The faith of the pure, like children, is wondrous to behold. I'm fortunate to work at a Catholic Church. I see kids grasping sacramental grace, not by analysis but because it's all love, when you boil it down. At funerals I hear people try to articulate things, but at the end of it all, what is there to articulate? Theology is a coping mechanism that I freely admit I need and enjoy. I wonder if just accepting "love" would be enough for me. I don't know. However, I do try to appreciate the sheer beauty of it when I see it. I believe that I can work on a non-intellectual level, but I must admit that it goes against my nature. Or is it nurture?

>>>>>If that's the case, then I have to wonder why god worked so hard to convince Moses and his buddies that god was for real, and why Jesus felt the need to perform "miracles" in order to build a following.<<<<<

Regarding Moses and his buddies. It wasn't about convincing him that he was real. Gods WERE real. You couldn't count the number of real gods if you tried. The question was how powerful was this God in particular.

As for the miracles, it took a miracle to win salvation. Why wouldn't it take miracles to build a following? And of course Jesus was more than miracle man, he also talked a lot.

>>>>>And as side note - gee, how dumb were the Hebrews! God slaughters an entire generation of Egyptians, then drowns the entire army, and as soon as Moses ducks off for a quick chat to the big guy the Hebrews fall into Paganism! Slow learners.....<<<<<

I don't know if any other race of people would be any different. Old habits die hard. What have you done for me lately? And it was all very confusing back then. Again, there were thousands of gods back then, of course they'd get mixed up. The hard hand of God didn't quit though, he was always there to smack them around.

I don't think of them as stupid. I try to consider what the times were like then. It was different. Belief back then didn't mean the same thing as it does today.

>>>>>Who commited the crime? Pharaoh.

Who carried out the sentence? The LORD.

Who paid the penalty? Pharaoh's son - and the children of everyone, including servants, farmers, and every average run-of-the-mill Egyptian. Oh, and the cattle!!<<<<<

If he just took out Pharaoh, would it have made an impression on the people of Egypt or the Egyptian slaves? He had to make a dent on all of Egypt to show just how powerful he was. It was a very harsh penalty. The Egyptians felt their gods were more powerful than Yahweh, and an example had to be made.

>>>>>Is there some confusion here? Exodus is true, isn't it? Or is it allegorical?<<<<<

It's got a bit of everything in it. It's great literature.

>>>>>Cool, a Catholic!!! You really need to start talking to "Christian" - you can start by explaining baptism...<<<<<

Hmmm. Baptism is a ritual, an initiation, it is connected to ancient water rituals. It is a way to demonstrate love for God, either the parents making a decision for a child out of love, or an individual making the baptism choice himself. Nothing is assured after baptism, but I think you're better off with it than without it.

>>>>>Neither do I. You need to realise (or perhaps you don't!) that "the meaning of life" is not an exclusively christian, or even exclusively theist, concept. Have you investigated Secular Humanism at all?<<<<<

Yup. Dated a secular humanist. Went to humanistic Judaism services. Gave me the spooks, probably just as my religion gives you the spooks. The meaning of life is an objective reality. Conceptual understanding of it will differ from person to person, and I feel comfortable in deciding that my understanding of it may be more superior than others. Of course I understand that everybody conceives the meaning of life though.

>>>>>How are souls created? What determines the 'properties' of a soul? If the soul is a 'decision-maker' (the power-cell of the Will) then can god build a soul that can make decisions he can't predict? If he *can* predict the set of all possible decisions a soul can make, then in what way are the decisions not ultimately "created by god"?<<<<<

I don't know the answers to any of those questions. I feel that I have a soul, it's just intuition. The soul is more than the decision maker. No, actually, it is not the decision maker. The brain makes decisions. Brains are faulty. The soul can interact with the barin. Souls can make decisions, but it is tough for me to conceive of that because my soul is so tied up with my brain. Non human entities like angels have souls and can make decisions.

-Elliot

 

[elliotfc]

>>>>>You're softening it down. The punishment is eternal damnation in hell. Remember that.<<<<<

Jesse your dogmatic declarations really impress me, you ought to be a preacher.

Punishment by damnation is an analogy to help us appreciate how hopeless and horrific separation from God is. I won't begrudge anyone that understanding if it helps them spiritually. If you want to fixate on this analogy and turn into your own personal dogmatic understanding of Christianity thats fine. But many Christians like myself don't fixate on punishment, which would have to make Christian theology more complicated than you would like it to be.

>>>>>BTW, I enjoy the moses/pharoh references. I forgot about how yhwh deliberately 'hardened the heart' of the pharoh. What gives there? The poor pharoh didn't have a chance! LOL!<<<<<

He got his chance after he died you see.

It isn't about going straight to hell. We'll all get a chance to be reconciled after death.

-Elliot

 

[The Mad Linguist]

y'know, if it turns I'm wrong and there is a God, I really hope Elliot et al. are correct and that Hell is really eternity in the absence of God. That'd be fine by me. Eternal life... no grovelling... woohoo!

If it's fire and torment a la old school Christianity, I might be a little bit annoyed.