God enthusiasm

[Pup]

I can try, it's been discussed on here before, though, and I agreed with what was said at the time.

http://www.differencebetween.net/miscellaneous/difference-between-cult-and-religion/

Summary:
1. Cults and religions are ways in which people can belong to a group and receive a way to interact with God bigfoot and the world.
2. Cults are generally considered to be secretive and illegitimate ( bigfoot culture fits this profile) whereas religion is open and legitimate.
3. Cults are joined through coercive persuasion whereas religion is generally inherited. ( I see bigfoot culture as being more manipulative than coercive. I think that depends on the person involved)

Read more: Difference Between Cult and Religion | Difference Between | Cult vs Religion http://www.differencebetween.net/miscellaneous/difference-between-cult-and-religion/#ixzz3YuQUtlYi

How would one even define legitimate and illegitimate in this context? According to whom? Believers and allies will say something is legitimate while nonbelievers or those who want to distance themselves will say illegitimate. At best, it's a popularity contest, with the largest faction in the population being polled being the ones to declare what's legitimate and what isn't.

As for #3, that would mean all religions are cults during their first generation, but what about later on where most membership is not inherited in some places? In other words, if most Catholics are children of Catholics in the US, but most Catholics in an area of Africa are converted by missionaries, is Catholicism a cult in that area of Africa?

 

[Jodie]

How would one even define legitimate and illegitimate in this context? According to whom? Believers and allies will say something is legitimate while nonbelievers or those who want to distance themselves will say illegitimate. At best, it's a popularity contest, with the largest faction in the population being polled being the ones to declare what's legitimate and what isn't.

As for #3, that would mean all religions are cults during their first generation, but what about later on where most membership is not inherited in some places? In other words, if most Catholics are children of Catholics in the US, but most Catholics in an area of Africa are converted by missionaries, is Catholicism a cult in that area of Africa?

I disagree with you, I think the fact that there is no evidence for bigfoot's existence and that there isn't any scientific basis for even thinking that the animal exists makes the claims made by bigfoot culture as a whole illegitimate. In other words, the premise of bigfoot culture isn't compatible with secular based theories, like evolution, for example. There are tons of discussions about the quality of bigfoot evidence on JREF, or the lack there of, so I won't itemize it here.

Catholicism is fairly new when compared to other religions such as Judaism and Islam. In general, religion developed out of a fear of unexplained phenomena regarding the natural world, like answering the question of how humanity got here. Any religion is a theological/faith based theory. Whether you pass that religious tradition down through the generations or introduce that tradition to a new community is not the defining point. Religion has been used in a coercive manner, no doubt, but it is the construct of the model that defines a cult from a religion.

Bigfoot culture has only been around for the last 20 years since the internet existed. Before then, there were stories and myths, but these stories have morphed over the years into pseudo-science with paranormal aspects, transitioning into a body of knowledge based on belief rather than anything scientific. Those that hold "the secrets" of what bigfoot is or isn't aren't forthcoming with any kind of evidence and will get hostile if confronted. I'm not talking about just acting nasty on the internet, literal death threats have occurred over differences of opinion or supposed hoaxes. Simply laying a track way down with stompers can cost you your life these days. Twenty-thirty years ago, everyone would have had a good laugh about the joke and went about their business. That kind of maliciousness is the strongest indication to me that bigfoot culture is becoming a cult.

 

[Pup]

I disagree with you, I think the fact that there is no evidence for bigfoot's existence and that there isn't any scientific basis for even thinking that the animal exists makes the claims made by bigfoot culture as a whole illegitimate. In other words, the premise of bigfoot culture isn't compatible with secular based theories, like evolution, for example. There are tons of discussions about the quality of bigfoot evidence on JREF, or the lack there of, so I won't itemize it here.

If that's the criteria for illegitimacy, then all religions are illegitimate too.

Catholicism is fairly new when compared to other religions such as Judaism and Islam. In general, religion developed out of a fear of unexplained phenomena regarding the natural world, like answering the question of how humanity got here. Any religion is a theological/faith based theory. Whether you pass that religious tradition down through the generations or introduce that tradition to a new community is not the defining point. Religion has been used in a coercive manner, no doubt, but it is the construct of the model that defines a cult from a religion.

It seems tautological to say religion is a theological-based theory, but as for faith-based, bigfoot believers seem to have that just fine. Their belief isn't an attempt to explain everything in the natural world or human origins, certainly, and that distinguishes it from most religions, but are there not cults which do attempt to explain that? I could see bigfootery classified as a worship of a local god.

Bigfoot culture has only been around for the last 20 years since the internet existed. Before then, there were stories and myths, but these stories have morphed over the years into pseudo-science with paranormal aspects, transitioning into a body of knowledge based on belief rather than anything scientific. Those that hold "the secrets" of what bigfoot is or isn't aren't forthcoming with any kind of evidence and will get hostile if confronted. I'm not talking about just acting nasty on the internet, literal death threats have occurred over differences of opinion or supposed hoaxes. Simply laying a track way down with stompers can cost you your life these days. Twenty-thirty years ago, everyone would have had a good laugh about the joke and went about their business. That kind of maliciousness is the strongest indication to me that bigfoot culture is becoming a cult.

What about Islam? A religion or a cult? Catholicism in the days of the inquisition? Violence or threats of it can be parts of large, apparently legitimate religions. I know there's the classic "cult" that recruits members by separating them from outsiders, using sleep deprivation and other techniques as well as threats of violence to keep members and also threats of violence to control criticism, but bigfootery seems to lack all that other than the defensiveness against criticism.

 

[abaddon]

Catholicism is fairly new when compared to other religions such as Judaism and Islam. <significant snippage>

Wait, what? The concept of Catholicism predates islam by over 400 years being first expounded in circa 100 CE. The list of popes goes right back to peter the claimed contemporary and disciple of jebus. Theologians revered by the RCC like Clement and Augustine long predate Mohammed.

 

[Darwin123]

Why are you angry with god?
What god has done for you that you hate him?

1) Why are you angry at Bigfoot?

2) What did Bigfoot do to you that you hate him?

3) What did your wife do to you that you had to beat her?

4) How come you prefer sex with young boys to your wife?

5) Why do you ignore the ghost of Houdini when he tells you
that crop circles are made by extraterrestrial aliens?

6) Is the reason that you left Bigfoot for Wendigo that you
are secretly Canadian?

7) Why are you angry at the Loch Ness monster?

8) Why do you ask leading questions when you know each contain
at least one false premise?

9) Etc.

 

[Jodie]

Wait, what? The concept of Catholicism predates islam by over 400 years being first expounded in circa 100 CE. The list of popes goes right back to peter the claimed contemporary and disciple of jebus. Theologians revered by the RCC like Clement and Augustine long predate Mohammed.

Sorry, I was raised a Methodist, I thought Islam was founded before Catholicism and that Christianity as an organized religion was a late comer. History of religion is not my strong point other than how it affected some of the political decisions made in history.

 

[Jodie]

If that's the criteria for illegitimacy, then all religions are illegitimate too.

I don't disagree
It seems tautological to say religion is a theological-based theory, but as for faith-based, bigfoot believers seem to have that just fine. Their belief isn't an attempt to explain everything in the natural world or human origins, certainly, and that distinguishes it from most religions, but are there not cults which do attempt to explain that? I could see bigfootery classified as a worship of a local god.

According to footers, the only place bigfoot doesn't exist is in Hawaii. There are cults that have a more religious bent, but some would categorize the Masons as a cult. I see bigfoot culture heading in that direction.


What about Islam? A religion or a cult? Catholicism in the days of the inquisition? Violence or threats of it can be parts of large, apparently legitimate religions. I know there's the classic "cult" that recruits members by separating them from outsiders, using sleep deprivation and other techniques as well as threats of violence to keep members and also threats of violence to control criticism, but bigfootery seems to lack all that other than the defensiveness against criticism.

Footers segregate themselves into "believers" and "knowers". Although the skeptics here sometimes refer to themselves as footers because of their interest in the subject, the " believers" and "knowers" don't see it that way. As I mentioned before, if you put the footer belief to the test, you could end up with some serious problems. I have friends here at JREF who have been subjected to their threats. I think the bigfoot culture is more cult than hobby at this point, and that is a new development that has happened over the last 20 years.

12

 

[barehl]

I didn't say anything about Venus. However I still maintain we have better maps of the surface of Mars and the surface of our Moon than we have of the Ocean floor here on Earth. Chris B.

Well, Venus has the same problem of having clouds interfering with seeing the ground. However, if you want to compare with Mars, that's fine. Mars has no oceans. If it did have oceans, the accuracy of the ground mapping would be 2.5 kilometers which is the resolution of the radar used for seafloor on Earth. The more accurate maps on Earth are made with sonar. However, sonar has never been used on any other planet.

Again, your original claim was that it was because we hadn't looked which presumably was to bolster a false claim that we hadn't found bigfoot because we weren't looking. Instead the limitation is physics. Do you know of a physics reason why we haven't found bigfoot?

 

[ChrisBFRPKY]

Well, Venus has the same problem of having clouds interfering with seeing the ground. However, if you want to compare with Mars, that's fine. Mars has no oceans. If it did have oceans, the accuracy of the ground mapping would be 2.5 kilometers which is the resolution of the radar used for seafloor on Earth. The more accurate maps on Earth are made with sonar. However, sonar has never been used on any other planet.

Again, your original claim was that it was because we hadn't looked which presumably was to bolster a false claim that we hadn't found bigfoot because we weren't looking. Instead the limitation is physics. Do you know of a physics reason why we haven't found bigfoot?

I suppose we can't see thru trees very well yet.
Chris B.

 

[carlitos]

Yeah, seeing through trees in summer can tough. That's why Bigfoot field researchers go camping in summer do their serious expeditions in the winter.

 

[Susheel]

Sorry, I was raised a Methodist, I thought Islam was founded before Catholicism and that Christianity as an organized religion was a late comer. History of religion is not my strong point other than how it affected some of the political decisions made in history.

As someone mentioned, the Church was already established be the 2nd C. Islam came into being about the 7th C. In fact , Mohammed drew much from Judaism and Christianity (particularly the James sect) in "designing" Islam. Jesus has a cameo in Islamic religious mythos.

 

[Susheel]

Do you know of a physics reason why we haven't found bigfoot?

They can bend light.

What....compared to some of the explanations procided by footies, this is reasonable.

 

[FrederickEason]

Jesus has a cameo in Islamic religious mythos.

Not just a cameo. Jesus (Isa in Arabic) is a major prophet in Islam. Muslims believe that Isa will one day return from Heaven to defeat al-Dajjal, the Antichrist, and usher in a new era of peace and prosperity, where all people recognize that Islam is the one true religion and join the Islamic community.

 

[carlitos]

It's hard to believe that a religious person wouldn't know that. "People of the book," and all.

 

[skeptichaggis]

Yeah, seeing through trees in summer can tough. That's why Bigfoot field researchers go camping in summer do their serious expeditions in the winter.

Good one. Of course one of the reason bigfoot researchers go on winter expeditions is because its when they get time of from the biology and zoology teaching they do at the university of "made up animals" and the renowned zoological institute "the paterson-gimlen foundation".

 

[barehl]

I think I can come up with a more reasonable definition.

Ideas that are rational have repeatable observation, logical inferences that can be tested, and consistent models. These ideas tend to become accepted over time. So, rational ideas can be popular.

Ideas that are not rational but are popular tend to have strong emotional appeal.

A cult involves emotional ideas but also behavioral control based on fear, isolation, and dependency. Con artists and abusers use similar behavioral control but don't fit their behavior into an emotionally appealing ideology.

Most religions are less controlling than cults but it is on a sliding scale with some suggesting isolation from TV, radio, movies, music, and most books as well as non-association with non-group members. Other religions are much more open and inclusive.

In order for bigfoot, ghost, or alien groups to be some kind of cult, they would have to be coercive. However, to be irrational they would only have to select emotionally appealing arguments with the absence of repeatable observation, testable inference, and consistent models.