God, Big Bang or Both?

[Kaylee]

If in this universe matter or energy cannot created (or destroyed) how did it get created?


My brain hurts.

Mine too. Regardless of whether I'm thinking about [universe matter | God ] that was always there and had no beginning.

Despite Occam's Razor (which I usually go by whenever possible) I find both possibilities so hard to wrap my brain around that I have opted for the one that comes with intelligence (God).

I realize that may not be the skeptical approach... but stuff that has no beginning is a beaut of a logical problem.

ETA: I just saw that my comment was too similar to Iacchus for comfort. Perhaps I'll just switch to "I don't know", thanks Mercutio!

 

[Iacchus]

My choice of words makes it quite clear I was not talking about you.

Sorry, wrong argument. I was just trying to emphasize that something cannot come from nothing, not even raw materials.

 

[uruk]

I was just trying to make it clear that something cannot come from nothing, not even raw materials.

Wouldn't you say that conditions at the begining of the universe were "unique" as compared to conditions today?

"something" from "nothing" is the rule in this universe as it is today. Those rules may not have applied in the beginning.

 

[Iacchus]

Wouldn't you say that conditions at the begining of the universe were "unique" as compared to conditions today?

"something" from "nothing" is the rule in this universe as it is today. Those rules may not have applied in the beginning.

Are the conditions of the rose unique before it blooms? Or, afterwards? And, might I suggest to you that the conditions were already "met" beforehand?

 

[Mercutio]

Sorry, wrong argument. I was just trying to emphasize that something cannot come from nothing, not even raw materials.

...which is why you think it more likely that an even more improbable event, a highly intelligent being, came from nothing. Your argument has done nothing to make your chosen belief any more possible.

 

[cbish]

Iacchus wrote:

I will admit that the sperm and egg cells were infinitesimally small (not nothing though) compared to what we have before us today.

infinitesimally small? Not really. You can see them with a microscope. Also, they're infinitesimally large compared to the subatomic particles they're made of let alone things like gluons, W & Z particles, photons etc.

 

[Mercutio]

Are the conditions of the rose unique before it blooms? Or, afterwards? And, might I suggest to you that the conditions were already "met" beforehand?

Suggest whatever you like. If you wish to convince others, however, you will need also to provide evidence.

 

[Iacchus]

Suggest whatever you like. If you wish to convince others, however, you will need also to provide evidence.

It's as easy as saying, something cannot come from nothing.

 

[uruk]

Are the conditions of the rose unique before it blooms? Or, afterwards? And, might I suggest to you that the conditions were already "met" beforehand?

Not the same thing or are you suggesting the plant did not exist before the rosebud? And if you just talking about the bloom, then yes, condition were different before the bloom.

But what about the conditions before the the present conditions were met? there was an unmet condition before there was a met condition.

 

[uruk]

It's as easy as saying, something cannot come from nothing.

Unless, of course, conditions were favorable for "something" to come from "nothing"

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Yes, sort of like where did that something which always existed -- i.e., the raw materials that created the Universe -- not! -- come from? Better off describing that something as highly intelligent, rather than trying to figure out how everything mysteriously came into order by itself.

What order are you talking about?

Surely an intelligent creator wouldn't have been so messy ..

 

[Pahansiri]

No matter what you believe, your belief system requires a belief in something that has no beginning and was always there. If not God than the raw materials for the Big Bang.

I've always been curious as to why some think it is more logical to believe in raw materials that independently developed into the universe compared to a God that created the universe and perhaps left it to run on automatic --- and why others think it is more logical to believe the other way around.

Either belief is outside the scope of what we can investigate using empirical methods.

Thoughts, comments?

If the “raw materials” matter and energy needed a source to exist than why would not the God also need a source?

If a God did not need a creating source then why can not matter/energy/ cosmos?

We know of and can demonstrate, investigate, test matter/energy/ cosmos we can not demonstrate, investigate, test. One is a physical reality the other a belief.

I believe there could be a God or a billion of them but find it greatly irrelevant and not seeing logical.
Just what I believe

 

[Pahansiri]

Yes, sort of like where did that something which always existed -- i.e., the raw materials that created the Universe -- not! -- come from? Better off describing that something as highly intelligent, rather than trying to figure out how everything mysteriously came into order by itself.

But something"highly intelligent" was able to mysteriously came into order by itself.???

 

[Iacchus]

What order are you talking about?

Surely an intelligent creator wouldn't have been so messy ..

No, I think that the term you might be referring to here is "diversity," not "messy."

 

[Skeptical Greg]

No, I think that the term you might be referring to here is "diversity," not "messy."

Believe me, I understand the difference. However, they are not mutually exclusive..

 

[Pahansiri]

No, I think that the term you might be referring to here is "diversity," not "messy."

This Sat when we bring our son to visit and play his young friend in the pediatric nursing home ( is in end stage duchenne muscular dystrophy has a few more months) I will do as I and my wife do every Sat go to the rooms of the other children. Most all of these children have horrendous birth defects, the lucky ones will live only short and painful joy free lives and die. Many will be kept alive and live to old age, moving from the pediatric ward to the young adult ward to the geriatric ward before death at an older age.

As we go to each room to give them each some love an attention I will tell them of Gods great plan of “diversity” explain that some had to be born healthy and some born like them but don’t worry “ God loves you so much, rejoice in his diversity and love”..

 

[Iamme]

(Diogenes)

The ' Goddidit ' answer, creates the problem of ' where did God come from? ' .

Keep it simple.

----------------------------------------------------

Ha. I've heard *that* before...but it *does* get one to think, while you rub your chinny chin chin, going "hmmmmm".

Okay, I presume then that by simple you prefer a theory where everything always existed in some simplest form of matter, or energy, correct?

Then what caused that energy to be able to blueprint iteslf to form magnetism, gravity...create laws where heat has to rise...where materials are fused due to heat and pressure (what determined there had to be pressure?)...mathematical formulation...just a host of things.

To have sophisticated 'engines' (stars, galaxies) that somehow just birthed themselves into existance into a realm of nothingness is almost incomprehensible.

Yes, it *is* indeed easier to believe that something was always there. The only alternative is it wasn't (there), and then it *was*(there).... either caused by a God, or by forces we yet not understand.

But there is still that bottom line: How did it know what to do in the sense that all order of physics arose out of that microbial-sized energy and hydrogen? How? And, perhaps to what purpose? Purpose surely means a guiding force...brain...God did it.

If you believe that all you see about you was strictly luck, well, it's quite an amazing chain of things that all happened to work out. In fact...the chain is so large, that I'll bet scienticfically, it is some number followed by many many zeros (or, to the nth power)

 

[Iacchus]

Not the same thing or are you suggesting the plant did not exist before the rosebud? And if you just talking about the bloom, then yes, condition were different before the bloom.

But, the idea of the bloom had already been conceived, through the process of being a plant. And, just like in the process of being human beings -- from embryo to old age -- we go through many stages of development in our lives ... all of which have been "pre-outlined" by our DNA.

But what about the conditions before the the present conditions were met? there was an unmet condition before there was a met condition.

Is it possible that the Universe was born from some prior set of conditions? Yes. And perhaps ours isn't the only Universe?

 

[uruk]

But, the idea of the bloom had already been conceived, through the process of being a plant. And, just like in the process of being human beings -- from embryo to old age -- we go through many stages of development in our lives ... all of which have been "pre-outlined" by our DNA.

But what about the plant from which the bloom is atached?

 

[uruk]

Ha. I've heard *that* before...but it *does* get one to think, while you rub your chinny chin chin, going "hmmmmm".

All very interseting questions which can equaly applied to a god.