God and the problem of evil

[uruk]

Millions of unnecessary deaths??? Death is a necessary part of life! Now, if on the other hand there was an afterlife? ...

Then why are we incarcerating murderers? They are providing a necessary service to mankind. And if there is an afterlife, the murderer is just helping the people they kill on thier way.
And if the afterlife is a much better place than this, why don't we all just kill eachother now and get ther faster.

 

[RebeccaBradley]

YBW, your question resonates with me. My dad had been gradually going downhill for a long while, and was finally diagnosed with Alzheimer's last year; in March, after a dreadful few months while my mother's ability to care for him was severely tested and we all took turns helping out, he was finally moved into a care facility. In his lucid moments, he is unhappy at being there, and desperate to go home - his nonlucid times are worse. In the last few weeks, he has fallen five times, and fractured a leg. His happiest days are when he's living fifty years in the past.

The kicker is, my parents are lifelong Fundamentalist Christians, with an abiding faith in the love and goodness of their god. My mum would not dream of wondering why this is happening to my dad, or trying to work out what it says about the "caring" nature of God; on the contrary, she is hugely grateful that God gives her the strength to cope, and thanks him constantly for his goodness. She also looks forward to getting to heaven in due course, where Dad will no doubt be himself again. As a nonbeliever, all I can do is keep my mouth shut and be happy that she has that comfort.

If I believed in a god, however, I'd have to conclude he was a right bastard to do this to gentle, inoffensive people who spent all eight decades of their lives worshipping him.

 

[Iacchus]

Then why are we incarcerating murderers? They are providing a necessary service to mankind. And if there is an afterlife, the murderer is just helping the people they kill on thier way.

Pain is a deterrent.

And if the afterlife is a much better place than this, why don't we all just kill eachother now and get ther faster.

Because most of us are uncertain of what that entails and, in order to die, it usually requires pain.

 

[uruk]

Pain is a deterrent.

Then would it have meant more if YBW had said "unecessary pain" rather than "unecessary death"? And is'nt pain a necessay part of life too? Besides, the murderer does not feel the pain of his victims death.

Because most of us are uncertain of what that entails and, in order to die, it usually requires pain.

But wouldn't it be worth it to get to the afterlife?

 

[BJQ87]

The kicker is, my parents are lifelong Fundamentalist Christians, with an abiding faith in the love and goodness of their god. My mum would not dream of wondering why this is happening to my dad, or trying to work out what it says about the "caring" nature of God; on the contrary, she is hugely grateful that God gives her the strength to cope, and thanks him constantly for his goodness. She also looks forward to getting to heaven in due course, where Dad will no doubt be himself again. As a nonbeliever, all I can do is keep my mouth shut and be happy that she has that comfort.

peace that surpasses understanding indeed

there was a time when you couldve been in rome and seen the proclaimation of liberty through Christ in a very clear and strong way. Hundreds of thousands of christians were murdered in rome during the whole time of the roman empire. And people saw this liberty, and saw how these people seemed to actually have a profound meaning and reason in life that they didnt have. Despite persecution, it is estimated that by the close of the third century, half the population of the Roman Empire were professing Chrisitans. But the most severe persecution was started around the year 300 by Diocletian. This persecution extended throughout the empire and lasted more than ten years even going so far as to hunt Christians down like animals and burned or thrown to wild beasts. Yet the number of Christians killed could not keep up with the number of people who chose to follow Christ rather than Caesar. Opposition by one of the most powerful governments the world has ever known was no match for the power of the gospel. And today there are millions of people all around the globe being affected dramatically by the same gospel. So this idea your mom has of being seemingly unreasonably faithfull because of Christ is nothing new. Maybe because theres something more about this Jesus, it may be that he's the son of God and that his spirit is with those who recieve it.

"The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, Because He has annointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed; to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord." Then he closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all who were in the synagogue were fixed on Him. And He began to say to them, "Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing."

 

[BJQ87]

to be burned or thrown to wild beasts*

 

[Iacchus]

Then would it have meant more if YBW had said "unecessary pain" rather than "unecessary death"? And is'nt pain a necessay part of life too? Besides, the murderer does not feel the pain of his victims death.

But, the murderer feels the pains of the repercussions which, act as a deterrent.

But wouldn't it be worth it to get to the afterlife?

If we understood, perhaps? But, isn't this what the nature of those who die as martyrs teach us?

 

[uruk]

But, the murderer feels the pains of the repercussions which, act as a deterrent.

Not if we reward him for the valuable service of providing necessary death.

If we understood, perhaps? But, isn't this what the nature of those who die as martyrs teach us?

So then why aren't we a rushing to be martyrs?
BTW, are you telling me that your unsure of the afterlife?

 

[uruk]

Maybe because theres something more about this Jesus, it may be that he's the son of God and that his spirit is with those who recieve it.

The problem with this idea is that other people of other religions claim the same type of peace and attribute it to thier particular deity or belief. So is it god or is it the person themselves believing in the stories?

 

[BJQ87]

i havent seen the same liberty outside of Christ, keep in mind Jesus Christ is not a religion.

What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." As it is written:

"See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."
Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, `Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down) "or `Who will descend into the deep?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?" Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. 18But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:

"Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world."
Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says,

"I will make you envious by those who are not a nation;
I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding."
And Isaiah boldly says,

"I was found by those who did not seek me;
I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me."
But concerning Israel he says,

"All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people." -Romans Chapter 10


"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them." Matthew 7:15-20

Based on this perhaps muhammed is a false prophet, being as his teachings have bore bad fruit from what i can see.

 

[SezMe]

Based on this perhaps jesus is a false prophet, being as his teachings have bore [sic] bad fruit from what i can see.

 

[BJQ87]

really, i had the impression that Christ followers give their lives for the sake of the gospel, and to help people in need and dont kill people based on their beliefs.

 

[SezMe]

really, i had the impression that Christ followers give their lives for the sake of the gospel...

Your point supports my contention!

... and to help people in need ...

People of all religions and the non-religious do the same thing. Your point merely highlights the fact the Christians are like all other people.

...and dont kill people based on their beliefs.

Your impression did not include consideration of the Crusades (among NUMEROUS examples) then?

 

[BJQ87]

regaurding the crusades

http://www.crisismagazine.com/april2002/cover.htm

on top of this there has been a whole lot corruption in the catholic church over the years, and if you believe that you have to confess your sins to a priest, get baptised, pray to mary, and be involved in the church to be saved then your following false teachings that could bear bad fruit. Doesnt really matter what your traditions and beliefs are, Jesus Christ is what matters.

 

[SezMe]

So, who's that guy nailed to all the crosses in the Catholic church?

But don't move the goalposts here, BJQ87, you were making assertions about christians, not catholics. Or do you not consider catholics to be christians?

And, to a larger matter, you seen to hold so much certainty regarding your faith, saying for example:

Doesnt really matter what your traditions and beliefs are, Jesus Christ is what matters.

Such certainty seems inconsistent with skepticism. So, why are you posting here? BTW, I am NOT suggesting you leave. I am really curious as to what drew you to a skeptical forum.

 

[YouBelieveWHAT?]

Thank you all for keeping the conversation going while I was away for the night!

And thanks to Iacchus for pointing out my blunder - thought I'm sure you understood what I meant. I agree that death is an inevitable consequence of life, but the timing and cruelty of these deaths was clearly "unnecessary".

Presumably your comment "But, the murderer feels the pains of the repercussions which, act as a deterrent." would apply only to future murderers? SUrely there couldn't have been any deterrent for this murderer?

BJQ87 - I have read the sermon now, but what it says to me that God sent His chosen people into exile in Babylon just so's he could free them later and show what a wonderful guy He really is - nothing new, I'm afraid, it's the same point I made earlier.

It tells me I should listen to the word of God - well I do have partial deafness in one ear, but basically if people talk to me I'll hear them - I don't seem to hear anything from God, however.

It also highlighted one important point about God's "message". Even though the Jews were His chosen people and in spite of apparently clear examples of what happens to them when they stray from Him, they continually, perversely, did just that.

So - maybe I should read the Bible? Ok - how about the beginning of Judges 1? (I'll paraphrase it a bit)
Joshua dies & is replace by Judah.
Judah, with his brother Simeon, at God's urging, attacks the Canaanites & Perizzites killing 10,000 men in Bezek alone.
Some seventy kings were captured and had their thumbs and great toes cut off
It goes on in similar vein....

So - is this the word of God that I should listen to? Attack other lands, slaughter the people and torture the rulers?

See - anybody can use the Bible quote game!

To comment on your persecution post - this at last I can accept as historically accurate, and horrific.

There have been similar episodes more recently, too, to show that persecution often fuels the very opposition that it's aiming to suppress.

When the German Army invaded the Ukraine on the 1940's, for example, they were welcomed as liberators. However, then Nazi functionaries arrived to administer the area and treated the locals as sub-humans. The inevitable happened - the whole region rapidly filled with partisans.

The point I'm making is that maybe Christianity became a focus for opposition to an oppressive government, and it wasn't because of the attractiveness of the message at all. I remember reading some time ago that in France & Yugoslavia, also during WWII, many fighters joined the Communist resistance, not for idealogical reasons, but because they were about the only group who were fighting back.

Hi Rebecca - as others have said to me "My heart goes out to you and your family". I wish there was some advice I could give. In Cardiff, where my father lives there is a local Alzheimer's support group that has helped him - maybe there's something similar near you. All I can say is that after eight years it's kind of become part of the background in the family. In our case, though Mam & Dad were regular church-goers, now Dad has joined me in becoming a "declared" Atheist, and I'm sure that the disease is the main reason.

As you wrote, it's even sadder when your mother ignores the inconsistency of God apparently causing the illness, but helping her cope with it. Only this morning I read something similar on the CNN website about Katrina victims.

Oh - and BJQ87 - just as SezMe wrote - please don't leave! - I am enjoying this thread - may we have many more discussions!

YBW

ETA - if you read further into Judges 1 - 1:19, there's an apparent get out clause for us Atheists: "And the Lord was with Judah; and he drave them out of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron"

Well - no mountain hereabouts, and mine's a Volkswagen, so I guess I'm OK!

 

[uruk]

"See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,...

So god purposly causes us misery so that we could come to know his grace?
Sounds like coersion to me. Would you not call someone evil or derainged for doing the same thing?

regaurding the crusades:
http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery...222_1&sbid=lc04a&linktext=Albigensian Crusade

quoted from the web site
"In July the crusaders captured the small village of Servian and headed for Béziers, arriving on July 21. They surrounded the town and demanded the Catharists be handed over; the demand was refused. The town fell the following day, an abortive sortie was pursued back into the town and the population was slaughtered. According to Caesar of Heisterbach the papal representative, Abbot Arnaud-Amaury, declared "Caedite eos! Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius" — Latin for "Slay them all! God will know his own." Béziers is believed to have held no more than 500 Cathars, but over 10,000 citizens were killed. The news of the horror at Béziers quickly spread and many settlements were cowed."

This little fact is not in dispute as the web site you posted would have you think. And let's not forget the inquisition, salem witch trials, abortion clinic bombings, etc...

 

[BJQ87]

So god purposly causes us misery so that we could come to know his grace?

the stumbling stone was referring to pride and self-righteousness, anyone who puts their trust in the Lord isnt going to stumble over that stone.

those examples you gave were of people immature in faith who were not following Jesus's teachings in commiting such acts, there is judgement for each of these that i do not know completely because i was not there.

To SezMe- It doesnt really matter what your traditions and beliefs are, Jesus Christ is what matters....when i say this i dont mean that the (in my opinion) false teachings of the catholic church dont affect people in negative ways, but it is to emphasize the point that if they believe in Christ they are saved regaurdless of the corruption and false teachings. The main problem is that there are a lot of catholics who have not recieved salvation in Christ but they're very much involved in the catholic church, and they still believe they will go to heaven just because they were involved in the religion. That in my eyes is a huge problem.

So - is this the word of God that I should listen to? Attack other lands, slaughter the people and torture the rulers?

No, we live relatively in a time of peace and thats the way it should be. That was a time of war, those were their enemies. They captured its king, Adoni-Bezek ("lord of Bezek") as he was fleeing, but instead of putting him to death, AS GOD HAD ORDERED, they compromised by cutting off his thumbs and big toes (v. 5-6). His own words in verse 7 are his condemnation. He had done the same to 70 kings whom he had put under subjection to him, and now he says that God had repaid him in kind. We maybe sure he had no righteous reason for maiming those kings, though Israel had serious reason for killing him. God had decreed this because of the demon worship to which these Canaanites had given themselves to.

 

[BJQ87]

i'm curious as to how much of the bible you have read btw

 

[uruk]

those examples you gave were of people immature in faith who were not following Jesus's teachings in commiting such acts, there is judgement for each of these that i do not know completely because i was not there.

I would agree with you. But don't you see? It is that uncertainty, that lack of specificity that is a consequence of the lack of certain, irrefutable knowledge of the existance of god that leaves these vague teachings so open to radical and extremeist interpretation of god's intentions.

Irrefutable proof and evidence of god's existance would not necessarily preclude free will, or rather free choice. You could still refuse or rebuke god even if you know for certain that he exists.
Faith is a powerful motivator of people, but the nature of faith means that you do not have irrefutable proof or evidence. But when you have no proof or evidence the door is left open for extremist interpretations and misinterpretations. Givin this, why does god still keep his existance hidden from us? Though men are responsible for the attrocities in his name, his refusal to make himself clear and certain to us allows these attrocities to take place. Even if we never will fully understand the intentions or reasons he allows these attrocities does not take away from the fact that they are still attrocities. So god allows a beloved family member to suffer horribly and die so that the remaining family will come closer together, become stronger or see the "light of the lord". That still does not take away that the person sufferd horribly and died or that god allows people to suffer.

the stumbling stone was referring to pride and self-righteousness, anyone who puts their trust in the Lord isnt going to stumble over that stone.

How would your pride and self-righteousness be tested or broken if you did not come to misery? Putting your trust in the lord does not mean that you will be protected from misery. In fact, see Job