God and the Little League

[Iacchus]

Even among the founders, the conception of god was not monolithic. They certainly felt differently about god than the McCarthyites did, and very differently than you, Iacchus, do.

Which is why they felt the need to establish the freedom of belief, to accomodate this and, in the hopes it will encourage people to think for themselves. This does not detract however, from the fact that they were believers themselves.

If you think there is disagreement between atheists and theists, that is nothing compared to disagreements between theists of different stripes. Would you mind if our currency said "in Allah we trust", or "in Thoth we trust", or any of a thousand others?

Sounds more like a language issue than anything else. If this was a Muslim country, I wouldn't necessarily be offended if "God" was pronounced "Allah." I would have a problem though, if the fundamentalists (of any organization) took over and started to control things. This is why the founding fathers opted to leave religion (since it lends itself so well to despotism) out of the government.

 

[cyborg]

Which is why they felt the need to establish the freedom of belief, to accomodate this and, in the hopes it will encourage people to think for themselves. This does not detract however, from the fact that they were believers themselves.

Except for, you know, the ones that weren't.

Sounds more like a language issue than anything else. If this was a Muslim country, I wouldn't necessarily be offended if "God" was pronounced "Allah."

Would you be offended if "God" was pronounced "Zeus"?

Which faith one is talking about is implied by the term.

Does it say god? No, it uses a pronoun form specifically created so that "God" would now always implicity mean the Christian one. That's why I would encourage anyone out there who doesn't want to do this not to use this form: "God" is not a name, it should not start with a capital letter. If you are talking about Yahweh state its name. If it's Allah then we know we're talking about the muslim god.

 

[Iacchus]

Except for, you know, the ones that weren't.

Except that in order to approach an understanding of something -- hence belief -- it usually requires taking a position of "non-belief." So, I'm sure there was plenty of room for atheism in the eyes of the founding fathers.

Would you be offended if "God" was pronounced "Zeus"?

No, not at all. So long as it wasn't held up as a means to emphasis something radical or extreme. The words, "In God We Trust," are pretty inocuous themselves, and don't necessarily accomplish this.

Which faith one is talking about is implied by the term.

And, are you sure it isn't just any reference to "God?" What if we were to use the word "creator" instead? Something tells me this wouldn't go over too well either.

Does it say god? No, it uses a pronoun form specifically created so that "God" would now always implicity mean the Christian one.

Let the fundamentalists claim victory if they want but, it will probably be the last victory (hopefully) they claim.

That's why I would encourage anyone out there who doesn't want to do this not to use this form: "God" is not a name, it should not start with a capital letter.

And why shouldn't we speak of the creator of the universe in its proper tense?

If you are talking about Yahweh state its name. If it's Allah then we know we're talking about the muslim god.

The word "God" is non-denominational.

 

[cyborg]

Except that in order to approach an understanding of something -- hence belief -- it usually requires taking a position of "non-belief." So, I'm sure there was plenty of room for atheism in the eyes of the founding fathers.

Again you seem not to be talking using English.

No, not at all. So long as it wasn't held up as a means to emphasis something radical or extreme. The words, "In God We Trust," are pretty inocuous themselves, and don't necessarily aqccomplish this.

So you'd go around saying, "In Zeus We Trust" even though you don't trust in a god sitting atop Mt Olympus?

And, are you sure it isn't just any reference to "God?"

Since it was a Christian who started it and got it popularised: no.

What if we were to use the word "creator" instead? Something tells me this wouldn't go over too well either.

Creator would be better. But then I'm not an American so it's pretty tangental to my concerns.

Let the fundamentalists claim victory if they want but, it will probably be the last victory (hopefully) they claim.

Who said this was a fundamentalist thing? It's been whole-heartedly embraced by the majority of Christian America - I'm sure most don't even think about the possibility of any other god being referred to.

And why shouldn't we speak of the creator of the universe in its proper tense?

Um, tense?

tense2 Audio pronunciation of "tense" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (tns)
n.

1. Any one of the inflected forms in the conjugation of a verb that indicates the time, such as past, present, or future, as well as the continuance or completion of the action or state.
2. A set of tense forms indicating a particular time: the future tense.

God is a noun, not a verb. It is not a proper noun, denoting a name, therefore it should not be capitalised except at the start of a sentence. Tense has nothing to do with this.

Sigh.

Also how do you know there was a singular creator? Any solid reason to rule out the possibility of a cluster of gods? I mean you haven't got any solid reason to rule in a god but anyway.

The word "God" is non-denominational.

Okay, you believe that if you want. You'll believe whatever you want anyway.

 

[Iacchus]

Well, why don't we just thow out the whole notion of God whatsoever, and forget that it had anything to do with the founding fathers of this country? You would really like that wouldn't you?

 

[cyborg]

Well, why don't we just thow out the whole notion of God whatsoever, and forget that it had anything to do with the founding fathers of this country? You would really like that wouldn't you?

I am from the UK. You Yanks do whatever you want with your country and revise your history however you damn well please.

No... actually, throw out the concept of god and replace it with goddess. "In Goddess We Trust"... damn that's sexy.

 

[Iacchus]

Goodness, look at what we have here! An excerpt from the first two paragraphs of The Declaration of Independence ...

IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness ...

Now, is it just this copy that has both the words "God" and "Creator" capitalized? Or, could there be others? Hmm ...

 

[cyborg]

"Nature's God"

"God"

Different gods. In the first context it's appropriate since it distinguishes a certain type of god - not a generic one (i.e. it couldn't be Zeus because Zeus doesn't have the right properties for Nature's God). In the second case it is also specific - the use of "God" was popularised by Christians and was certainly meant to imply the Christian god. It is however not a pronoun and hence cannot be used as such.

I mean if your argument was right sure it'd be:

"In Nature's God We Trust"?

 

[Iacchus]

I mean if your argument was right sure it'd be:

"In Nature's God We Trust"?

No, I think folks would be more inclined to trust in "their Creator."

 

[cyborg]

No, I think folks would be more inclined to trust in "their Creator."

Cute, but no-one is absuing that term today so I don't have to deal with it.

 

[cyborg]

Oh and as an aside you didn't explain why the tense of god is wrong. Why is it that "god" isn't right for you?

 

[Iacchus]

Cute, but no-one is absuing that term today so I don't have to deal with it.

Oh, I find the terms "God" and "Creator" interchangable and refer to both all the time. So, perhaps it's time you start?

Oh and as an aside you didn't explain why the tense of god is wrong. Why is it that "god" isn't right for you?

Perhaps because there isn't anything central or unifying about it? The idea of a single "God" or, "Creator" seemed to be central and unifying enough to go to war over it don't you think?

 

[TragicMonkey]

Goodness, look at what we have here! An excerpt from the first two paragraphs of The Declaration of Independence ...

Now, is it just this copy that has both the words "God" and "Creator" capitalized? Or, could there be others? Hmm ...

It also capitalizes "Rights", "People", "Course", among others. Capitalization was a hit-or-miss thing back then.

And the word "god" has no tense at all; it is a noun, not a verb.

 

[cyborg]

Oh, I find the terms "God" and "Creator" interchangable and refer to both all the time. So, perhaps it's time you start?

They are not interchangeable. A creator doesn't necessarially have to have the qualities of a god. Things can create by 'dumb' logic. Gods do things due to 'will'.

Perhaps because there isn't anything central or unifying about it?

It is generic. It is therefore appropriate when one is talking about a non-specific god. The use of "God" is non-specific - you agree. Case closed.

 

[triadboy]

The word "God" is non-denominational.

Except to an Xian. To them "God" is Jesus' daddy.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Except to an Xian. To them "God" is Jesus' daddy.

Only because they didn't have DNA testing back then. Let's see if that sort of story holds up the next time a "virgin mother" comes around.

 

[Iacchus]

It also capitalizes "Rights", "People", "Course", among others. Capitalization was a hit-or-miss thing back then.

Or just a way to emphasize the "significance" of something.

And the word "god" has no tense at all; it is a noun, not a verb.

And, if you wish to emphasize something in the "proper tense," specifically a noun, you capitalize it.

 

[Iacchus]

It is generic. It is therefore appropriate when one is talking about a non-specific god. The use of "God" is non-specific - you agree. Case closed.

No, it is not no-specific which, is why is captitalized. It refers to "God," the Creator of the Universe.

 

[Mercutio]

Or just a way to emphasize the "significance" of something.

And, if you wish to emphasize something in the "proper tense," specifically a noun, you capitalize it.

Wow. You have been shown specifically that your usage is dead wrong, but you just keep hammering away at it. Feeling "tense", Iacchus?

 

[Mercutio]

No, it is not no-specific which, is why is captitalized. It refers to "God," the Creator of the Universe.

Either you are right, that it refers to this particular belief system and not others, in which case the First Amendment prohibits it, or you were right before when you said it was "pretty inocuous", and it trivializes god to the point of meaninglessness.