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God and Santa

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Hellbound said:
It's an interesting question, but I think the OP mentioned the answer wihtout realizing it.

As he said, there are some efforts to promote Santa: he's at malls, there are presents at Christmas, and so forth. Eventually, the kids realize that Santa can't be at both malls in town (and pay a visit to the school) all at the same time. Or they see Mom and Dad puttin presents under the tree labelled as being from Santa. Or any of a thousand other inconsistencies in the evidence.

With God, and most religions, however, there isn't any evidence. There's nothing to point out inconsistencies in. And when you do, it's just tossed aside as if it's unim,portant, either explained away with omnipotence or mysterious ways, or simply tossed aside as a "that may be wrong, but here's a new one!".

In other words, it is specifically the lack of evidence that allows religious belief to prosper. It's trivially easy to prove that the mall Santa doesn't have a sleigh parked outside, and that no one outside your family is putting presents under the tree. These are the "core" Santa attributes, so once they're disproven that's pretty much it. There's nothing that can be pointed at to say "that's definately God", which can then be shown to be something else. With God even the core attributes are impossible to pen down, and untestable. It would be as if the only attributes you had for Santa was "always watches you" and "wears red". Add to the fact that nothing is predictable with God, and that ties it up. (For example, Santa has to come on Christmas, has to leave presents, etc. God may answer prayers, may perform miricales, uses mysterious ways, etc).

Because there's no possible evidence for God, there's no way to prove or disprove such a nebulous concept. You can disprove some secondary aspects, but not the core.
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Actually, that really depends on which god is being spoken of. The standard god of the bible -- pfft. Child's play to refute. Been there, done that centuries ago (not by me of course; but minds far more acute and powerful than mine). Gods that remain non-descript or are deliberately "defined" (loosely) so as to be outside of all rational discourse and thought... sometimes they are also fairly easily debunked, but maybe some gods aren't.
 
Beelzebuddy said:
Because Santa doesn't have centuries of apologetics greasing the stairs of childhood inquiry. He still has a physical body, for example. He's got some magic: if you don't have a chimney he can come in through the stove or the drainpipe or he can call Dad to be let in, but it has to be done physically. God has no such theoretical limitations: first question from Junior that can't be easily fielded and bam! mysterious ways all up in this hiz-ouse.
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"Dad how does God/Santa get into our hermetically sealed biodome?

He's Magic son."

Same explanation suits both, but its nice that you think you have the final say on Santa lore.
 
The Norseman said:
Actually, that really depends on which god is being spoken of. The standard god of the bible -- pfft. Child's play to refute. Been there, done that centuries ago (not by me of course; but minds far more acute and powerful than mine). Gods that remain non-descript or are deliberately "defined" (loosely) so as to be outside of all rational discourse and thought... sometimes they are also fairly easily debunked, but maybe some gods aren't.
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Well, I'd argue that the omni-everything properties of the god of the Bible give it a free "get out of logic" card. It has it's own escape clauses built in.

Santa has no Claus ;)
 
Hungry81 said:
"Dad how does God/Santa get into our hermetically sealed biodome?

He's Magic son."

Same explanation suits both, but its nice that you think you have the final say on Santa lore.
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Don't brush off the differences so easily. It may make perfect sense to you to tell your kids that God and Santa don't exist for the same reasons, but there's a whole arm of evangelical Christianity that preys on people duped by such easy answers as I've given here, arranged prettily to spell the words "goddidit."
 
Delvo said:
Figure out that Santa Claus doesn't make sense and must be fictional, and those who've been lying to you about him admit it. Figure out the same thing about God, and they... react somewhat differently.
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Probably because they're not actually lying, so why would you expect them to 'admit it'?

I think that's the main reason Santa's a crappy analogy for religion. Almost every parent who has told their kid the Santa story also admits they are fully aware it's a fabrication. You won't find this for any religion I'm aware of. We assume it happens in Scientology, but it's not public knowledge like the Santa situation.

eg: I can't think of one parent who talks openly about tricking their kid into First Communion because they wanted to see the kid enjoy the ceremony. They're pretty universally sincere.
 
blutoski said:
Probably because they're not actually lying, so why would you expect them to 'admit it'?

I think that's the main reason Santa's a crappy analogy for religion. Almost every parent who has told their kid the Santa story also admits they are fully aware it's a fabrication. You won't find this for any religion I'm aware of. We assume it happens in Scientology, but it's not public knowledge like the Santa situation.

eg: I can't think of one parent who talks openly about tricking their kid into First Communion because they wanted to see the kid enjoy the ceremony. They're pretty universally sincere.
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Dude.
 
The first red section was about people talking about God. The second red section was about people talking about Santa Claus.

It's a noteworthy distinction, at least for those religious people who are actually sucked in to the whole thing. Preachers, though, I can't count among them, especially after a bit of experience on the job. They've studied it too much and had too many questions about it presented to them in too many ways, to not get how nonsensical it is.
 
Gawdzilla said:
Dude.
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?

I don't understand your comment. I think you didn't read the post I was responding to.

Please read delvo's original post (#10 in this thread). There are two situations being compared: people who tell their children about God (and understandably resent being accused of lying) and people who tell their children about Santa (and happily admit they're lying).

I find that because of this clear and important difference, the Santa story is a poor analogy for religion.
 
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blutoski said:
?

I don't understand your comment. I think you didn't read the post I was responding to.

Please read delvo's original post (#10 in this thread). There are two situations being compared: people who tell their children about God (and understandably resent being accused of lying) and people who tell their children about Santa (and happily admit they're lying).

I find that because of this clear and important difference, the Santa story is a poor analogy for religion.
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I don't see a difference. They're both lying.
 
Gawdzilla said:
I don't see a difference. They're both lying.
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No, they're not. Lying means to consciously tell a falsehood. The word "consciously" is the operative word here.

The parents who tell their kids about Santa know that Santa doesn't exist, so they are lying.

The parents who tell their kids about God are convinced that God actually exists, so they are not lying, even if they're wrong in their conviction of the existence of God. (and I agree with you wholeheartedly on the latter point).
 
ddt said:
No, they're not. Lying means to consciously tell a falsehood. The word "consciously" is the operative word here.

The parents who tell their kids about Santa know that Santa doesn't exist, so they are lying.

The parents who tell their kids about God are convinced that God actually exists, so they are not lying, even if they're wrong in their conviction of the existence of God. (and I agree with you wholeheartedly on the latter point).
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Skinheads sincerely believe they are right in telling their children whites should rule all other races. Does that make it okay?

"It's okay because we've been doing it a long time" just doesn't work.
 
Gawdzilla said:
Skinheads sincerely believe they are right in telling their children whites should rule all other races. Does that make it okay?

"It's okay because we've been doing it a long time" just doesn't work.
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I don't think anyone is saying it's a good thing. Just that it is different to lying.
 
Gawdzilla said:
Skinheads sincerely believe they are right in telling their children whites should rule all other races. Does that make it okay?

"It's okay because we've been doing it a long time" just doesn't work.
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You're moving the goalposts. ddt was commenting on the distinction between false statements made by parents who believe they're telling the truth and false statements made by parents who are deliberately lying. Whether or not those statements were morally right is not what was being discussed.

But given the scenario you put forth... is it ever not morally okay for parents to teach their children what they believe to be the truth about what they believe is morally correct?

While we may both agree that teaching kids that whites should rule other races is morally wrong, I'd argue that it's morally okay for bigots who sincerely believe this to tell their children that this is the case, because those bigots are trying to do the right thing by their children and are genuinely unaware that their beliefs are wrong.

They're not lying to their children.
They're telling their children what they believe is right and true.
Those beliefs just happen to be utterly wrong.
 
That's just not what that word means. You don't get your own definition separate from everybody else's.
 
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