God and Quantum Mechanics

[Singularitarian]

That's because you don't know what you are talking about. Experiments with orbiting atomic clocks have experienced time dilation with no observers present. Gravitational lensing has been recorded without anyone out near the sun to watch it happen. Relativistic effects are not observer dependent.

That Einstein used them in his thought experiments does not indicate that they are crucial to the effects occurring. I challenge you to find something Einstein wrote that indicates otherwise.

It has nothing to do with ''what Einstein said.'' By logic, we are accounted by the math as possessing information about time dilation in theoretical science. If we act as observers that can be effected inertially and relative to another frame moving at speed, then we are part and parcel of relativity. Yes, there are atomic observers, but ignoring Einsteins thought-experiments would require us to consider us as not being components of the theory, which is false.

 

[Upchurch]

By logic, we are accounted by the math as possessing information about time dilation in theoretical science.

We are also accounted by the experimentation as possessing information about time dilation. Experimentation that is not dependent upon an observer being present.

However, I challenge you to find something in the math that indicates Relativistic effects are observer dependent.

If we act as observers that can be effected inertially and relative to another frame moving at speed, then we are part and parcel of relativity.

Not so. We can remove the observers from the situation and the effect remains. By definition, that means the effects are observer independent.

Yes, there are atomic observers, but ignoring Einsteins thought-experiments would require us to consider us as not being components of the theory, which is false.

The thought experiments are only metaphors to help Einstein (and the rest of us) have a conceptual understanding of what is happening. The thought experiments are neither rigorous science nor have any physical reality. You'll recall (or maybe not) that Einstein's original thought experiment on the subject involved him, Einstein, riding on a beam of light. I promise you that Relativistic effects do not require that Einstein be riding on a beam of light.

 

[Singularitarian]

Will neglecting a theory which integrates our experience leave the theory of relativity incomplete? I suggest it would. For a theory of everything, or a GUT, the ultimate goal of physics, the standard model requires to answer for all phenomena within space and time, this includes ourselves. In this way, you have no opportunity but to accept we have an experience associated to hypothetical thought-experiments, and their descriptions can involve us. Neglecting them will leave it incomplete, totally obsolete as a true model which explains existence.

 

[BNRT]

Does it require observers, more specifically us?

I want to say ''yes'', but it's a reserved ''yes'' because of the steps required to think this way.

Take for analogy, a theory like relativity. It has to do with noticing differential times for all inertial observers. Since we classify as an inertial observer, the theory of special relativity includes us then as being an observer-dependant model. It not magical or anything, its practically the form of the theory, and how it demonstrates the effects of time dilation and gravitational dilation.

If you removed our role in varifying the experiments set by relativity, then relativity only works for atomic observers. To show we are no different to the experience of that, Einsteins demonstrated the twin paradox, making us essentially within the same mix of principles.

I don't understand. Are you making and the theory of relativity and the theory of relativity? That doesn't make much sense. Furthermore, you seem to be saying that because we are subject to the theory of relativity, it must be human dependent. Is then gravity also dependent on humans? Electromagnetism? Also, I doubt you fully understand the twin paradox.

[...] For a theory of everything, or a GUT, the ultimate goal of physics, the standard model requires to answer for all phenomena within space and time, this includes ourselves. [...]

I always thought the Grand Unification Theory was about combining relativity with quantum mechanics. Neither of those are specifically about humans.

 

[dlorde]

Remember, in special relativity, we find it to be an observer-dependant theory, and i'm not just talking about atoms, but actual human observers.

Special relativity is not observer-dependent, it's just a model of how the universe behaves in a specially limited context. It clearly has implications for observers, but observers are only required when explaining those implications to people without the math to understand them directly from the equations. Einstein used trains, stations, and human observers in his thought-experiment descriptions because he thought a familiar context would help visualization and aid understanding. Sadly, some people seem to read it more literally than others.

You can replace the observers in those thought experiments with simple machines that can detect whatever signals are involved, and it makes no difference. You'll find that in real-world experiments in relativity, the observers are almost always machines, because they can observe with far precision than human observers. Humans set them up and start them running, and interpret the results afterwards, but they're not Einstein's observers.