God, Adam, Eve and Myth

[lifegazer]

Pretty good, lifegazer. I've never heard of that one. It sure fits your philosophy.

Is it original with you or does it come from the books that inspired you?

Well I am aware - though no expert of - the symbolism used in the bible. Adam is the male (reasoning/judging) part of consciousness, whereas Eve of course is the female - feeling - part of consciousness. Concsciousness as a whole resides within the garden of Eden = Christ/God consciousness. So, when eve was tempted to know of things, reason was plunged headlong in there with her, and both were lost to christ-consciousness.
For a season, anyway.

The whole bible is like this. You really should check-out biblical symbology. Those who read the bible literally, are utter fruitcakes. Revelations, for example, is not a story of the world's Tolkien-like demise, but the return of Adam & Eve, so to speak, to Christ/God consciousness. It's another completely mystical narrative of God's wavering/diverse consciousness.

 

[Yahweh]

Adam = self-awareness. (a reasoning/judging awareness)
Eve = emotion.(emotion was founded upon the ribs of judgement)

The tree of knowledge = an awareness of things. To eat thereof is to become aware of the world.

Eve (emotion) was given to things, and Adam (reasoning awareness) became lost within those things.

Hence, Adam and Eve (reasoning and emotive awareness), were cast-out into the world of things, losing the garden of Eden (the awareness of being in God).

You have an interesting examination of some of the symbols in Genesis.

In my opinion, Adam and Eve do not represent the symbols self-awareness and emotion. A complex occurrence of parallel and contrast occurs with the account of man’s creation. Man is not only made in the image of God, paralleling him, but woman, made from the man’s rib, contrasts with man. This suggests that the world is logically organized around binary opposites, or basic opposing forces (the most obvious binary pair is the relationship between Good and Evil).

Its possible the Tree of Life is a symbol, but it does not appear to be written in a way that immediately stands out to me as "symbol" (if God has destroyed the Tree of Life shortly after banishing Adam and Eve, I think the symbolic value would be obvious). The purpose of Genesis follows like this:
The author is trying to account for the way that certain unfavorable elements of everyday human life came into being. The etiological concerns are clear enough in these chapters. The writers and the redactors have collected stories that explain how evil and separate nations entered the world, why women must live in a society characterized by male standards, why we as humans must work to survive, and why our daily labor is always so hard.

 

[Riddick]

Re: It's a comedy!

Things that strike me as funny/amusing:
Oh, and Atlas, I don't think that the concept of Satan, or at least something diametrically opposed to the Ultimate Good is a reaction from having Ultimate Good, but rather a personification of all the "negative" emotional states we have: just as God is an abstraction of euphoria, so is Satan an abstraction of anguish.

gawd, so this is why at the peak of sexual excitement we're prone to say "OH GOD!"

/me slaps self on side of head, i never knew that.

 

[Yahweh]

The whole bible is like this. You really should check-out biblical symbology. Those who read the bible literally, are utter fruitcakes. Revelations, for example, is not a story of the world's Tolkien-like demise, but the return of Adam & Eve, so to speak, to Christ/God consciousness. It's another completely mystical narrative of God's wavering/diverse consciousness.

Some people believe Revelation speaks of the future, but a good understanding of the background of this story makes the purpose of it clear (and after reading it, it makes you wonder how in the hell it found its way into our modern bibles).

Revelation was written around 81 AD, this was time of extreme stress for Christians. The author of Revelation understood the coming persecution of the early Christians in parts of Asia Minor (they would be violented forced to worship the emperor or Rome, which was something the Christians must resist), Revelation is an attempt to persuade the small churches to turn away from imperial cult worship and toward the true God, who was in charge of history and who will triumph in the end. The story's symbolism holds that the Great Whore of Babylon (which is the Roman Empire) will eventually fall, and the One True God would remain supreme. Revelation was written to persuade Christians to stake their lives on their decision to remain ever-faithful to God.

Revelation is a dramatically different in style from the rest of the Bible, its context utterly disconnected with the intent of the bible, its significance was only intended for the time period which it was written (its amazing, the number of Apocalyptic writing during that time enough that "Apocalypse" could very well be considered its own genre). The Rapture Folk dont seem to miss that fact...

 

[Yahweh]

Re: It's a comedy!

Things that strike me as funny/amusing:

Lets add to the list...

10) Satan appears to Eve in the form of a serpeant. Naturally, God curses all serpeants to the ground for Satan's mischief.

(You posess one serpeant, and suddenly the entire species losses is limbs... what a stickler God is...)

 

[Phil]

. . . The whole bible is like this. You really should check-out biblical symbology. Those who read the bible literally, are utter fruitcakes. Revelations, for example, is not a story of the world's Tolkien-like demise, but the return of Adam & Eve, so to speak, to Christ/God consciousness. It's another completely mystical narrative of God's wavering/diverse consciousness.

Yes, I agree. Those who read the Bible literally are utter fruitcakes. But then what should we say about those who, once they recognize the literal meaning of the Bible is nonsense, invent symbolism vaguely connected to its original dogma?

It's like the dancing chicken pop singer who, after having the bubble gum of his or her act pointed out repeatedly, all of sudden tries to play jazz piano, because it somehow seems more adult. The only problem is, it's the same old talentless goober, and it doesn't improve his or her credibility a single mote.

I don't know, in a way it seems kind of sad to me, considering there are better books on which to hang your dogmatic beliefs, even symbolically, if that's your bent. I mean why not consider another piece of fiction, or else let go the silly notion entirely, and have some fun before you die?

 

[Riddick]

Adam = self-awareness. (a reasoning/judging awareness)
Eve = emotion.(emotion was founded upon the ribs of judgement)

The tree of knowledge = an awareness of things. To eat thereof is to become aware of the world.

Eve (emotion) was given to things, and Adam (reasoning awareness) became lost within those things.

Hence, Adam and Eve (reasoning and emotive awareness), were cast-out into the world of things, losing the garden of Eden (the awareness of being in God).

You're saying Eve was not self-aware? Well, I don't know how you intend to pull that thought off.

btw, saying "Eve = emotion" took some real balls brother. I'm suprised the women haven't ripped you up one side and down the other for that. I've known some women who are more like Great White Sharks.

The Tree of Knowledge was not an awareness of things. This is what Satan was selling them on, however. Satan said "You will be as God, discerning good from evil. Seeing the future."

The Tree of Knowledge was a test. It was a test as to whether they would follow God's instruction. They already had awareness.

 

[Atlas]

The Tree of Knowledge was a test. It was a test as to whether they would follow God's instruction. They already had awareness.

Riddick,

I was hoping you'd stop by. When I was young and asked our priest about Adam & Eve he noticed our skepticism and told us something.

"You don't have to believe in Adam and Eve, you just have to believe that at some point God put a soul into his creation and that was then Man." It seemed to quiet my doubt. I didn't have to accept that a real Adam and a real Eve existed. He never explained the origin of sin though. I didn't even miss it. It took years before I put it together.

You believe that the Bible has to be taken literally, don't you? Because otherwise there is no explanation for what is called "sin" and if not for Adam no Jesus would be required. That's what I believe the fundamentalist position boils down to and if I'm wrong I'd like to be corrected.

 

[Yahweh]

You're saying Eve was not self-aware?

Riddick, you have missed the point of Lifegazer's post entirely.

Lifegazer sees the story of Genesis and its literary details as symbols. You do understand what symbolism is dont you?

Well, I don't know how you intend to pull that thought off.

btw, saying "Eve = emotion" took some real balls brother. I'm suprised the women haven't ripped you up one side and down the other for that. I've known some women who are more like Great White Sharks.

*sigh* Ripping someone down is an expression of emotion, this emotion tends to be called "rage".

By the way, Lifegazer is not saying all women are "emotion", he's saying the character of Eve from the story of Genesis is representive of human emotion. Being a symbol, she did not exist, nothing from Genesis occurred, the details of the story are supposed to communicate concepts not history.

The Tree of Knowledge was not an awareness of things. This is what Satan was selling them on, however. Satan said "You will be as God, discerning good from evil. Seeing the future."

The Tree of Knowledge was a test. It was a test as to whether they would follow God's instruction. They already had awareness.

So much for omniscience if he did not know the outcome of this test...

And if God does in fact have omniscience, this "test" of his makes him an evil god.

 

[Wrath of the Swarm]

The Tree of Knowledge was a test. It was a test as to whether they would follow God's instruction. They already had awareness.

But since they didn't have awareness of right or wrong, why should they have obeyed instructions? How can they be held responsible for a choice when they lacked the knowledge and judgment necessary for that choice to be meaningful? If they had randomly chosen not to eat the fruit, how would that be better than randomly choosing to eat it?

 

[Igopogo]

One interpretation that I've heard is that Adam and Eve are children new to the world and still with an innocence of youth.

The loss of innocence is at the center of the story. Although it's expressed in terms of the knowledge of good and evil it is more likely simply carnal knowledge. The serpent/snake/penis rises before woman who seduces the man into sampling the forbidden fruit they share.

This is sort of similar to one interpretation I recall hearing long ago in Sunday school (I had a pretty cool Sunday school teacher with some theology schooling). That was years ago, so my memory may not be doing his explanation any justice:

The myth may have started out as a straightforward sexual analogy with man originally being represented by the tree of knowledge and woman by the tree of life. (Repeated oral retellings may then have led to an evolved version of the story to its written form). The serpent offering the woman fruit was a representation of the sexual act. IIRC, the Bible doesn’t mention what kind of fruit is offered by the serpent, so the fact that it’s usually understood an apple or plum that’s offered is supposedly a clue that early theologians had a sexual connotation to their interpretation of the story.

 

[lifegazer]

Riddick, you have missed the point of Lifegazer's post entirely.

Lifegazer sees the story of Genesis and its literary details as symbols. You do understand what symbolism is dont you?

Thanks for coming to my defense.
My version of events sought to show that the whole drama was about consciousness. Of course, our consciousness has a
rational-judging side and an emotional side. As I said, in the story, God created emotion upon the rib of judgement. The story has nothing to do with creating the whole female body out of a rib bone of the male body. To believe that literally is absurd.
Hence, such consciousness, without knowledge, existed within Eden, which is merely symbolic of Christ-consciousness - aware of having being in God.

The interesting part is that Eve (our emotional side) should be the one that drags us into the world. Why would Eve be blamed?
Simply because Eve is emotion and emotion includes desire of course. Sooner or later, the desire to quench our curiousity of things would plunge us into the world of things. Afterall, God consciousness is creative. When God desires something, then it will come to pass. We are in the world because we desired to be in the world.

I'm convinced that the story of Adam & Eve is a narrative of why God was destined to live in the World.

 

[bjornart]

Someone is a bit too fond of the phrase "of course", me thinks.

 

[Jon_in_london]

You can blame it on Adam
You can blame it on Eve
You can blame it on the apple
but that I cant believe!

There would never have been a woman
or an apple or a man, and there wouldnt have been
a serpent if it wasnt in God's plan!

Its God they should be crucifying instead of you and me
I said to the carpenter a-hanging in the tree.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

O.K. I sense that this thread has about had it, so it is time for
my favorite Adam and Eve joke..


God says to Adam

" Say Adam.. How would you like to have a companion? This will be a
gorgeous creature that will cater to your every need, and bring you
unimaginable pleasure... "

Adam answers

" Well, it sounds great... What is it going to cost me? "


God replys

" You are going to have to give up an arm and a leg.. "


Adam again..


" What can I get for a rib ? "...

 

[Gestahl]

Re: Re: Re: Re: It's a comedy!

My ex was a big fan of his. She told me about him and made me watch the Bill Moyers 6 hours PBS series. I thought Moyers was getting in the way. I could've listened to a lot more of his comparative myth and it's impact on our mind. Before listening to him I thought of myth as fiction or lies. I credit Campbell with giving me an appreciation for the role of myth in the story of man.

Well put. I think Campbell just takes it too far sometimes in his conclusions from it. And you are right... Moyer is just a sychophantic little yes-man in that series. Its also really a shame that he had to pick Star Wars and George Lucas as recent topics, becuase it is really a poor myth story, and George Lucas just loves to pile on the BS.

 

[Atlas]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: It's a comedy!

Well put. I think Campbell just takes it too far sometimes in his conclusions from it. And you are right... Moyer is just a sychophantic little yes-man in that series. Its also really a shame that he had to pick Star Wars and George Lucas as recent topics, becuase it is really a poor myth story, and George Lucas just loves to pile on the BS.

Agreed on all points.

Campbell talked about how myths emerge in a culture and then chose Star Wars. The only thing that did was broaden my view. I had really thought of myths being strictly religious and I wondered a little about what American myths would look like. I didn't know how to recognize them within my own experience.

I ran across a website awhile back that dealt with myths of all ages. It addressed American myths not quite corresponding to Greek myth but some parallels were apparent. Uncle Sam and Lady Liberty were kind of Uranus and Gaia. Superman was like Zeus.

I know I'm presenting it wrong but it was interesting to peek into the realm of myth within my own culture... or at least view it as if these symbols hit the mind in the same way that old myths did in their respective cultures... the ideals and lessons they impart - just by their images.

 

[triadboy]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: It's a comedy!

Well put. I think Campbell just takes it too far sometimes in his conclusions from it. And you are right... Moyer is just a sychophantic little yes-man in that series. Its also really a shame that he had to pick Star Wars and George Lucas as recent topics, becuase it is really a poor myth story, and George Lucas just loves to pile on the BS.

I disagree. (I'm a BIG Campbell fan.) He was an expert of World Mythology - he could relate an Eskimo myth with an Indian myth or an xian myth with a Shinto myth. I thought he was marvelous.

To bring up Star Wars is to bring up a story familiar to everyone - HOWEVER - the basics of this story is the core of human mythology - the story of a man whose people are in trouble - he leaves this plane of existance and gain a power/device that is used to save his people when he gets back home. This simple story is a universal dream.

 

[Correa Neto]

All creation myths are embedded in several layers of symbolism and moral tales, subject to many different readings. The Genesis (and its variants) is not different. On the present thread, so far, the lights have been on Eve, but according to the Talmud, the first woman was Lilith, that was created, as Adam, from clay. But when Adam decided to have sex with her, she wanted to be on top, saying that she was built from the same materials as he, she was equal to him, therefore he could not dominate her. God (our "everloving" and "mercyfull" father...) sent her to hell to live with the demons and made a more tame version, from Adam´s rib.

That´s clearly a moral tale (OK for the prevailing moral of those times and on many parts of our modern and advanced world). The meaning is women are inferior to men, they own their very existence to men. Also, women should not be on top. Now, a funny note is that if one uses an evolutionary approach, then women are more evolved than men, since they were created (evolved) from them.

 

[Dancing David]

Go Lilith it's your birthday, although I did read some stuff saying that Lilith arises in judaic myth about 1500, she is very much derived from the Ca,aanite Astoreth,Istar,Astarte,Innana thing. She is very babylonian too, with birds wings and I think owls feet.

The problem with he bible is that it is an edited oral tradidtion where the pharisee's won out over the other factions.

There are two creations, which gets left out, sort of. YHVH destroyed the first creation when he extended justice without compassion and the world was consumed in fire, he screws up again and drowns the place somewhat later.

ADM is a putz, outcast by the other Ca'ananites, Lilith was the high preistess, he looks for a deity who will help him. Then YVHV creates EV, although in some traditions they are created together in one form, and god strikes them apart with an axe.

The tree of knowledge is the tree wof life which the hebrai stole from the egyptians.
When god casts ADM and EV from the garden they are spirits which is why they cloth themselves in the 'skins of animals'.

The saducees shared more of the ca'anite traditions than the pharisees.