God, Adam, Eve and Myth

[Atlas]

It is my contention that humanity accesses a multitude of emotional states, several of which are lofty enough to have been lumped under the rubric 'God'. These feelings are preconscious or unconscious and not in any way products of rational thought. They can be as elevating as ecstatic joy and transport, or as fortunate as yearning love, or as quiet as the peace that surpasses all understanding, or any of several others. They are accessed by trivial communications; hearing the rhythms of poetry and song, the smile on an infant's face, the scent and warmth of a walk through a flowered field on a summer's day, or the tender touch of a cherished human friend.

No matter how deep a dark age we fall into we will always have certain emotional states that lift us higher than our mundane existence predicts. So unworldly are they that from them we postulate and ponder a wonderful existence, beyond our own, filled with light and goodness. The sea, the sun, the stars in the night sky, all play their fanciful role in this magical existence beyond our dull, drab, earthbound existence. Such, for me, is the genesis of God and soul in man.

Succinctly, God is a feeling. Objectifying the feeling distances it from us and that is not the goal of the individual in this. Subjectivists may have been content with God as feeling but Objectivists rationally abstracted God back 1 reality from the human experience to become the source of that experience and eventually the source of all experience and reality.

Judeo-Christian-Islamic thought abstracts another reality too. To preserve the sanctity and goodness of the source of this light there has to be a separate source of all of our darkness, the reality of evil and sin. A single fable describes how this prince of darkness deceived man and introduced sin, suffering, and death to an otherwise idyllic and always wonderful creation. That is the Adam and Eve myth of Genesis.

Without the talking serpent story man might be considered "perfect" in his own right in this strange violent existence. But with the story, he is a sinful fallen creature in need of redemption. It is in this story and nowhere else that humanity finds the need for a Savior for we have fallen and cannot get up. Cannot get up by ourselves anyway. 'Jesus' as well as 'The coming in Glory to Judge' myths descend from this fable as necessary elements in the story of man. They exist for no other purpose but to fulfill the required implications of Adam and Eve and the Garden.

This bond has been broken except for the fundamentalist adherents of the literal interpretation of the Bible. For those who do not adhere to the literal truth of Adam and Eve, Jesus still comes to die for our sins but without regard for where sin originated. It is assumed that all the spiritual characters of Genesis exist even if Adam and Eve do not and that God and the Devil and Sin have always existed pretty much as Genesis describes them, even if the story is not 100 percent factual.

I think the myth has been made powerful beyond it's original intent. Talking serpents alone makes the tale a fable. I have heard some strange interpretations of aspects of this tale. Feel free to comment on this prologue but I'd like to ask you to comment on the tale itself. What about it strikes you, societally, mythologically, spiritually? What or who are the characters, really? Is it more than a well designed children's story that has been woven into the fabric of Genesis and Judeo-Christendom? What did it mean to you when you were first told it and how has that changed? Are we 'sinful' anyway? Is that a silly or dangerous question?

I am fascinated by the hypnotic effect this myth has had on our culture and would truly like to hear your take on it.

 

[Gestahl]

It's a comedy!

Things that strike me as funny/amusing:

1) Adam immediately blames it on the woman. Nothing has changed in 5000 (give or take if you believe it) years.

2) People were still supid, knowing they shouldn't do something, and doing it any way, becase we only truly learn from personal experience.

3) People were intially not ashamed of their naked body, nor should we be by the words of Genesis. It is only our "sin" that makes us ashamed. I think this is poignant considering modern Christianity's take on the naked body these days.

4) God deliberately lies, or at least distorts the truth, and it passes right under the nose of most Christians (Adam and Eve did *not* die in the literal sense, though they were allowed to physically die.

5) Somehow, mans sins got transferred to animals and they got kicked out, and started dying too. I call extreme foul on God here, as having no free will (per most Christians statements on the soul re. animals) absolves them of all guilt. What did they ever do?

6) What language did Adam name the animal in... Hebrew? The one language before the Tower of Babel? Which begs the question if no one could understand each other, how was Genesis passed down with any accuracy?

7) What is everyone's opinion on whether other's existed at the time outside the garden? If so, is the Adam story a story of the creation of God's people, or rather of all humanity? It seems to me implicit that there were others created elsewhere.

8) God seems like a nice guy at this point, then goes to being a vengeful, wrathful God, then back to a nice, happy God in the NT.

9) Why was God so pissed about anyway? He wants people to have free will, right? Knowledge of good and evil is essential to free will in order to do good (identical to God's will). So it seems God created us with free will, with no morality other than His mandates, which failed because Adam and Eve would not even recognize it *was* wrong. Then He seems pissed when they do it, thus exercising their free will to make their free will useful!

A note on that last point. I personally think that the this tree represents allegorically trying to use the physical world to accomplish something (knowledge) rather than a spiritual sense (just let God tell you). This is dangerous, leading to the close-minded ignorance (I have heard more than one Christian tell me that science and "book smarts" are not wisdom, and just a fake tree of knowledge that will be my downfall, and God will curse me for it. Be very afraid).

Oh, and Atlas, I don't think that the concept of Satan, or at least something diametrically opposed to the Ultimate Good is a reaction from having Ultimate Good, but rather a personification of all the "negative" emotional states we have: just as God is an abstraction of euphoria, so is Satan an abstraction of anguish.

 

[Atlas]

Re: It's a comedy!

Oh, and Atlas, I don't think that the concept of Satan, or at least something diametrically opposed to the Ultimate Good is a reaction from having Ultimate Good, but rather a personification of all the "negative" emotional states we have: just as God is an abstraction of euphoria, so is Satan an abstraction of anguish.

Point taken. Well expressed Gestahl. Excellent post. I especially like your thoughts about the tree itself... allegorically trying to use the physical world to accomplish something (knowledge) rather than a spiritual sense (just let God tell you). I hadn't heard that "wisdom" before. Great stuff! I can't help but admire the power of myth and the human imagination that is able to infer such "pearls".

 

[tdn]

Re: It's a comedy!

Eden, to me, seems like a maximum security prison with 24-hour surveillance, a pest problem, and a warden that tempts his prisoners with insight yet punishes them when they seek it out.

Defying the warden, taking the insight, and getting kicked out of prison was the best thing Eve ever did. She shouldn't have eaten the apple, she should have made a damn pie!

As to the rest of the OP, yes, that little flame of "more than me" that we all have is awesome. I love that thing. But I don't believe for an instant that Jebus is the only way to that flame. Easterners have been experiencing for millenia before they ever heard of Christ. I sometimes experience it when I'm writing music or doing something else creative. When I'm lucky.

 

[Atlas]

Re: Re: It's a comedy!

...she should have made a damn pie!

I like that, MMMMmmm, Pie!

Eastern philosophy was a revelation to me. A culture that never experienced original sin and never needed a Savior. The idea hit me like a ton of bricks. My whole Christian world view was endangered by it and soon crumbled as I realized all of it's underpinnings stem from this crazy little tale.

 

[Gestahl]

Re: Re: It's a comedy!

As to the rest of the OP, yes, that little flame of "more than me" that we all have is awesome. I love that thing. But I don't believe for an instant that Jebus is the only way to that flame. Easterners have been experiencing for millenia before they ever heard of Christ. I sometimes experience it when I'm writing music or doing something else creative. When I'm lucky.

Absolutely. That is the primary reason I think we do things: every once in a while you hit that "God" euphoria moment when all the world makes sense... etc. Sex (a base reason in itself of much human endeavor), music, majestic architecture, church, science, and even your job can give you that feeling from time to time. That is what makes things worth doing.

I think that is why many drug users report "I met God!" when they have an especially "good trip:" they are just putting that absolute euphoria in the only way available to our language (from both personal observation and observation of others). The interesting thing is that users from other cultures report the same, although they do not meet God, they experience Nirvana, see Buddha nature, what have you. In a sense, they may be right ;-).

 

[Gestahl]

Re: Re: It's a comedy!

Point taken. Well expressed Gestahl. Excellent post. I especially like your thoughts about the tree itself... allegorically trying to use the physical world to accomplish something (knowledge) rather than a spiritual sense (just let God tell you). I hadn't heard that "wisdom" before. Great stuff! I can't help but admire the power of myth and the human imagination that is able to infer such "pearls".

Have you by any chance read a lot of Joseph Campbell? Comparative mythology coupled with psychology makes for some very interesting reading, even if Campbell is a pretentious, pompous Jungian.

 

[Atlas]

Re: Re: Re: It's a comedy!

Have you by any chance read a lot of Joseph Campbell? Comparative mythology coupled with psychology makes for some very interesting reading, even if Campbell is a pretentious, pompous Jungian.

My ex was a big fan of his. She told me about him and made me watch the Bill Moyers 6 hours PBS series. I thought Moyers was getting in the way. I could've listened to a lot more of his comparative myth and it's impact on our mind. Before listening to him I thought of myth as fiction or lies. I credit Campbell with giving me an appreciation for the role of myth in the story of man.

 

[Ladewig]

2) People were still supid, knowing they shouldn't do something, and doing it any way, becase we only truly learn from personal experience.

I take issue with the word "stupid." They've just been created, they have no personal experience, and they have no way of understanding that a commandment from God is something that must be followed. Even God's threat, "you will die," is beyond the comprehension of a being that has never witnessed death in any form whatsoever.

I see it as if an adult puts a three-year-old child alone in a room and says you may play with any object in this room except the matches on the floor, then the adult later surprised to find the room on fire, then it is the adult and not the child that is stupid. Can Adam and Eve's comprehension really be beyond that of a three-year-old?

5) Somehow, man's sins got transferred to animals and they got kicked out, and started dying too. I call extreme foul on God here, as having no free will (per most Christians statements on the soul re. animals) absolves them of all guilt. What did they ever do?

Yes, and it was harshier on the herbavores than on the carnavores. Furthermore, now that death is introduced to the animal kingdom, God lets it be known almost immediately, that one of the few ways to please Him is to kill animals and burn their flesh as part of a sacrifice.

 

[Gestahl]

2) People were still supid, knowing they shouldn't do something, and doing it any way, becase we only truly learn from personal experience.

I take issue with the word "stupid." They've just been created, they have no personal experience, and they have no way of understanding that a commandment from God is something that must be followed. Even God's threat, "you will die," is beyond the comprehension of a being that has never witnessed death in any form whatsoever.

Ack! I even say that later in my post! Point taken.

However, I almost universally use "stupid" to mean: "refusing to listen to a voice of more information and experience". This can refer to yourself, as when you say "I was so stupid," you knew better than to do that, but you did anyway to your own detriment.

 

[triadboy]

A single fable describes how this prince of darkness deceived man and introduced sin, suffering, and death to an otherwise idyllic and always wonderful creation. That is the Adam and Eve myth of Genesis.

It isn't that simple. The A&E story speaks of a serpent. This story (laid down in writing ~800 BC) - predates the time when there was a Satan. Basically, before the Babylonian exile - there was only Yahweh. There was no Satan. When something bad happened - it was Yahweh who caused it. (In a couple of places in the OT, "...an evil spirit came over the Lord"). Under Babylonian influence (which was under Zoroastrian influence), the idea of a god of good and a god of evil began to be followed. This solved the horrible idea that God could do bad things. The serpent wasn't associated with Satan for hundreds of years.

There are Sumarian flavors to this story also. (i.e. The Tree of Life and the serpent)

This myth (written by J) shows the God that J knew. A very human god. A god afraid of his creations. We have no idea about the god J was referring to. He is lost.

The serpent (who apparently had legs) spoke the truth when he told A&E they would not die if they ate the fruit. Very strange.

Another myth that facinates me is Cain and Abel. A truly ancient story (probably passed to J orally) about the battles of nomads and farmers. And how the farmers eventually won.

J is the key myth-writer in the OT. She wrote Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel, Noah, Tower of Babel, Sodom and Gemmorah - The Book Of J describes HER as a writer equal to Shakespeare.

 

[Atlas]

Re: Re: God, Adam, Eve and Myth

It isn't that simple. The A&E story speaks of a serpent. This story (laid down in writing ~800 BC) - predates the time when there was a Satan. Basically, before the Babylonian exile - there was only Yahweh. There was no Satan.

Triadboy,

Thanks. Something new I didn't know. I learned in college from a Jewish prof in a History of Death class that the earliest Jews had a religion of the living and no real afterlife. That evolved. References to "The Bosom of Abraham" appeared as the place to where the dead migrated. The evolution continued.

I never thought about the first notion of an anti-god force. As I reread the creation story it doesn't mention the creation of Hell or the underworld. The serpent is decribed as the craftiest of animals.

I had thought He created the Angels and that failed because they rebelled and were cast down. So He tried creating Man but still got it wrong, - because of the pesky angel disguised as a serpent. Kind of a bumbler for a perfect being.

I had imagined that for being cast down the serpent/devil decieved man. But it's not there in the text. Another hypnotic/delusional aspect of the story on me.

Your reference to J was also new to me. Not much on the Web. I found this: The Hidden Book in the Bible by Richard E. Friedman. Is that where you came by that interesting tidbit?

 

[triadboy]

I forget where I read that. I read books about religion constantly. It is my favorite subject.

Tidbit: The same person who wrote about a talking snake also wrote about a talking ass.

I googled The Book of J - but didn't find it either. I'll check it out when I get home.

Here's the progression as I know it:

Oral
~800 BC - J (Jahwist) writes HER stories (this book claims J might have been a woman in the court of Roheboam [right after Soloman])

Later - E (Elohimist) stories are present. These stories may have migrated into Judah after the fall of Israel to the Assyrians. They have a pro-north edge to them.

D (Deuteronomist) stories are present also

P (Priestly) writes and collects stories around the time of the Babylonian exile. P wrote the "In the beginning...", Leviticus, anything that is anal.

R (Redactor) assembles, rewrites, story-crunches, deletes, etc. I've read the Redactor may have been Ezra.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

The most flagrant paradox of the A&E story, that literalists ignore, is that how could A & E, having no knowledge of good and evil ( right and wrong ) be committing a sin when they listened to the serpent and ate the fruit? ( that gave them the knowledge of good and evil )

 

[pgwenthold]

Re: It's a comedy!

4) God deliberately lies, or at least distorts the truth, and it passes right under the nose of most Christians (Adam and Eve did *not* die in the literal sense, though they were allowed to physically die.

More to the point, I think, is that if you look at what happened, Satan really didn't do anything all that wrong. The only thing you can really pin on him is that he knowingly convinced A&E to disobey God's order. OTOH, all he really did was to tell them the truth, that they would not die and that they would become like gods themselves. And sure enough, they didn't die and they knew the difference between good and evil, just like God. Of course, they got booted out of the Garden before they could eat of the Tree of Life, which would have made them immortal, too. In fact, God kicked them out to prevent them from eating from the Tree of Life.

Yeah, Satan got them to disobey. But he did it by telling them the truth.

 

[Johnny Pneumatic]

Frank Zappa on Eden

So, when Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden, if you go for all these fairy tales, that "evil" woman convinced the man to eat the apple, but the apple came from the Tree of Knowledge. And the punishment that was then handed down, the woman gets to bleed and the guy's got to go to work, is the result of a man desiring, because his woman suggested that it would be a good idea, that he get all the knowledge that was supposedly the property and domain of God. So, that right away sets up Christianity as an anti-intellectual religion. You never want to be that smart. If you're a woman, it's going to be running down your leg, and if you're a guy, you're going to be in the salt mines for the rest of your life. So, just be a dumb f*ck and you'll all go to heaven. That's the subtext of Christianity.
-- Frank Zappa

 

[Atlas]

Thanks bewareofdogmas,

One can always count on Zappa for that pithy but peculiarly expressed opinion. Even in his vexation he does bring me a smile.

 

[Atlas]

One interpretation that I've heard is that Adam and Eve are children new to the world and still with an innocence of youth.

The loss of innocence is at the center of the story. Although it's expressed in terms of the knowledge of good and evil it is more likely simply carnal knowledge. The serpent/snake/penis rises before woman who seduces the man into sampling the forbidden fruit they share.

The parent is who they hide from, but they are found and in shame, and all realize that they are forever changed and no longer exist in the Garden of innocence. There is no way back to innocent virginity either.

It's really a simple coming of age story like other fairy tales. That's how it should be understood not as the story of the very first human beings.

Is that similar to the underlying meaning you've understood it to be or are there other interpretations?

 

[lifegazer]

Adam = self-awareness. (a reasoning/judging awareness)
Eve = emotion.(emotion was founded upon the ribs of judgement)

The tree of knowledge = an awareness of things. To eat thereof is to become aware of the world.

Eve (emotion) was given to things, and Adam (reasoning awareness) became lost within those things.

Hence, Adam and Eve (reasoning and emotive awareness), were cast-out into the world of things, losing the garden of Eden (the awareness of being in God).

 

[Atlas]

Pretty good, lifegazer. I've never heard of that one. It sure fits your philosophy.

Is it original with you or does it come from the books that inspired you?