Gobs of Gods

Re: Re: Re: Re: Gobs of Gods

Whodini said:
There are a lot of differences, but I think the main spirit of peoples' god(esses) beliefs are more similar than different, and that the differences are cultural more than structural (for lack of better word).
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I'm trying to follow this. "There are a log of differences [in gods]" but people's beliefs in their gods "are more similar than different"

Trying to elaborate on this a bit, you're trying to say that although the object of people's beliefs have very different, the act of believing, itself, is very similar? Further, what ever differences there are in the act of believing are due to cultural factors rather than anything inate in the act of believing?

That's what I'm getting when I take your statement word for word, but with what you said orignally was: "Names are just that. It is the concept that is important." Implying that it is the object (or "concept") of the belief that makes all the difference.

So, if you believe that the concept (or object of belief) is important, then evildave's argument is valid, because each name is attached to a different concept (granted, some are similar, but some are not). Pascel's Wager fails because only believing in once concept provides only a 1/1400 (using Dave's numbers) chance of being correct.

If on the other hand, only the act of believing is required and not selecting the correct object of belief, the odds get much better. In fact, believing in your parents would be enough. or baseball. or that the sun will rise tomorrow. Heck, taking it to the logical extreme, believing in Satan or Demons any number of evil concepts would work to with Pascel's wager.
 
Wait... Jesus said that there is no path to God save throguh himself. He can't be God, because then you'd have to go through God to reach God.
 
Akots said:
Wait... Jesus said that there is no path to God save throguh himself. He can't be God, because then you'd have to go through God to reach God.
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What does 'go through' mean in that context?
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gobs of Gods

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Further, what ever differences there are in the act of believing are due to cultural factors rather than anything inate in the act of believing?
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Yes, kind of a dragons vs. UFO's type of thing, and noticing that Eastern religions tend to be more similar within the East, and Western religions tend to be more similar within the West. There are some exceptions though.


China having a god of martial arts is proof to me that specifics of what one believes in are mostly influenced by culture. :)


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That's what I'm getting when I take your statement word for word, but with what you said orignally was: "Names are just that. It is the concept that is important." Implying that it is the object (or "concept") of the belief that makes all the difference.
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Yes, but not "all the difference", but rather "all the similar".
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gobs of Gods

Whodini said:
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That's what I'm getting when I take your statement word for word, but with what you said orignally was: "Names are just that. It is the concept that is important." Implying that it is the object (or "concept") of the belief that makes all the difference.
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Yes, but not "all the difference", but rather "all the similar".
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Do you believe that Pascal's wager is a false solution because there is no way to choose the correct object of belief?
 
You listed Tiamat twice, as well as Tammuz and Sol. There are probably many others, too.
 
I did mention I haven't spent much time ripping chaff out of it. There's also Bast and Bastet, and several other dissimilar names that are a reference to the same deities. In fact, virtually every Roman god was pretty much a rip-off of a Greek god, renamed.

Of course, the geneology of gods was not my target. Just to go dig up a bunch of names. That's why I don't claim 1476 names, but rather 1400.

I could've even spent time comming to study and understand every single religion and deific reference. But why bother? I may as well study every nuance of Teletubbies and Barney the Dinosaur episodes for all the usefulness it would have.

And you know, I think I'll even agree with Whodini's assessment of how similar they ALL are.

Why, just consider Christianity, Islam and the Aztec religions.

They all require sacrifice, but the details of how it's gone about is the only difference. And look in the Old Testament at what YHWH/JHVH/Jehova/God wanted His followers to do. Blood, blood, blood. All very similar. Now modern Islamic elements think that strapping on a bomb and blowing it up on a bus full of random people is the way to "sacrifice". Christians just want to fight for what is "right". Then we have the Aztecs, who sent collected prisoners and cut their hearts out on an altar, and ritually consumed the remains.

They all believe that when they kill, they do so for the very best of causes. What's the difference? I don't see one. Lots of people die, and be it for Jesus, Allah or Tlaloc.
 
You put Mania in twice...

Also, I didn't know Gilgamesh was a God. I just thought he was some guy out of the Bible.

-INRM
 
I have heard the number 10,000 bandied around as being the approximate number of gods created by the inquiring mind of man, and all of them sprang from a primitive mind at that.

I am certainly glad you didn't go to the trouble to list them all. Got a lot of free time on your hands do ya"? :D

For some reason I never got caught up in any of them during my 59 years of traipsing this planet.
 
evildave said:
I took a few minutes to compile the names of a few of the deities that people have believed in, and that people still do believe in... I definitely missed LOTS of them. Only about 1400 of them here. Some of them are probably repeats and/or synonyms for the same ones, too.

Any obviously missing ones?

Now then, given "Pascal's Wager", that you should believe because it's dangerous not to believe, which one should I believe in, "just to be safe"?

Or perhaps he/she/it/they aren't listed here?

ABASSI
...snip...
ZOTZ
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Please be careful! Have you never read "The Nine Billion Names of God" by Arthur C Clarke....
 
Originally posted by evildave
I took a few minutes to compile the names of a few of the deities that people
have believed in, and that people still do believe in... I definitely missed LOTS
of them. Only about 1400 of them here. Some of them are probably repeats
and/or synonyms for the same ones, too.

Any obviously missing ones?
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I'm happy that you haven't discovered the three hundred million dieties of India.
:)
 
Well, you know I probably wouldn't waste the bandwidth on the sort of scale of 9,000,000,000 or even 300,000,000.

At 9,000,000,000, that's almost every possible name containing up to seven characters (including spaces). So, we could be missing gods with names like A, or ZZZZZZZZ.

Of course, knock out the names with obvious spelling errors, like CKCKCKCK, and you probably actually have them up to something more like eight or nine or ten places, according to how thoroughly you choose to filter names for your favorite "All Encompassing Union Of All Gods" deity.
 
I'm not exactly sure what the point of this thread is, unless evildave just wants to bait people. The large number of gods is largely irrelevant to the efficacy of Pascal's wager.

The best reason that Pascal's wager fails (if its intention is to convert the non-believer) is that you can't make yourself believe in God for the purposes of the wager. You either believe or you don't. You can say you believe because of the wager, but if that is the only reason, then you don't really believe. And any God worth his salt will be able to see that.

On the other hand, if you already believe, all Pascal's wager does is reassure you about the risks/rewards involved. For those who truly believe, any "sacrifices" for that belief will not be seen as sacrifices, but rather as the proper way to live. And the reward is great. Even with all 1400 of evildave's gods, a 1/1400 chance at immortality is better than a 0/1400 chance, especially when the believer does not believe the cost to be great.
 
Under that logic, God would prefer you to live a generous, compassionate life as a strict and hard-line atheist skeptic, rather than following all the written rules while being a horrible person through loopholes.

Sounds good to me. :)
 
Akots said:
...rather than following all the written rules while being a horrible person through loopholes.
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Well, if we pick Christianity as the religion in question, I'm not sure how this is possible. Jesus said that the two most important rules are to love God and to love your neighbour as yourself (saying something to the effect that on these two hang all of the laws of the prophets). If one follows these two rules, I don't see how you would be a "horrible person through loopholes".
 
WooHoo hahahaha

This is great stuff.

Evildave: you have answered a question I have had for a long time. Do gods come in herds,prides or dens? The answers is they come in Gobs, as opposed to gaggles I suppose.

This is truely a deep subject, there is an inherent paradox in Pascal's Wager.
What if the diety of choice, upon whom the wager is made, wants that choise to be made from the basis of belief and not fear. To believe in the diety of choice merely because there is a chance that they might exist id most likely to not please the more narrow minded and intolerant dieties.

I once sugusted to a friend of mine that the benefits of prayer were unlikely to be changed by the object of the prayer. I stated that a person could very likely get the same benefits from praying to Fred Flintstone as any other reputed diety. Now what effects may come from the coice of icon may vary but I belief that the benefits of prayer are based upon the effort of prayer not the object.

I think that polythieist nihilism covers most of the winning options in pascal's wager.

Peace
dancing David
 
:)

I believe that this Japanese religion of shinto understands some millions of Gods.
 
Thanz said:


Well, if we pick Christianity as the religion in question, I'm not sure how this is possible. Jesus said that the two most important rules are to love God and to love your neighbour as yourself (saying something to the effect that on these two hang all of the laws of the prophets). If one follows these two rules, I don't see how you would be a "horrible person through loopholes".
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The "most important" laws and tenets are arguable, according to which Christians you'd like to ask.

Some believe that you get an automatic "pass" for heaven just for "giving your heart to" J.C.

(From Matthew, Chapter 10)
10:32
Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
10:33
But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
10:34
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
10:35
For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
10:36
And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
10:37
He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
10:38
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
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It seems to me that to follow these teachings is to care less about your family than religion. The whole chapter is about how worthless people are who don't follow "The Way".

15:1
Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
15:2
Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
15:3
But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
15:4
For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
15:5
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Q: "Why don't you wash your hands, like you're supposed to?"

A: "Why don't you kill disobedient children, like you're supposed to?"

Or to put it simply, enforce selectively what laws you like, and you as much as have no laws. A bit of real truth, there.

So, you'd better re-read that Bible and track down ALL of the rules your Jesus says you should follow, before you pick a few nice-sounding rules that you like and claim the whole thing is "good" through and through. Some of those "rules" are truly repulsive, and a few are contradictory, so if you do decide to follow them ALL, you will probably drive yourself crazy.
 
evildave said:


The "most important" laws and tenets are arguable, according to which Christians you'd like to ask.
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not really. From Matthew 22, 34-40:

34 Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together.
35 One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question:
36 "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"
37 Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'
38 This is the first and greatest commandment.
39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
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