Go woke, go broke

[SpuriusMaximus]

Both mythical characters, nothing wrong with adding a little diversity there. Are people actually going to argue that mermaids, dragons, ghosts, elves, trolls, dwarfs, fairies, witches, warlocks, can only be white?? That would be very silly.

There's always going to be SOME nutcase somewhere arguing against X, no matter what X actually is. I mean, we have flat-earthers and young-Earth creationists, for Lucifer Morningstar's sake.

But the main tool of any propaganda is to take those (out of context if you must) and extrapolate via a by-association fallacy as being representative of EVERYONE opposing X. Like, you oppose Putin's autocracy? You know who else opposed the Russian leader? THE NAZIS! Ergo, only nazis oppose Putin.

 

[theprestige]

"We're gonna remake The Little Mermaid!"

"Great, another pointless remake. Why not come up with something new?"

"This remake isn't pointless! Ariel is black this time!"

"Still seems pointless to me."

"That's because you're a Nazi!"

 

[Hercules56]

"We're gonna remake The Little Mermaid!"

"Great, another pointless remake. Why not come up with something new?"

"This remake isn't pointless! Ariel is black this time!"

"Still seems pointless to me."

"That's because you're a Nazi!"

Meh, I see some value in turning a cartoon film into live action. I really enjoyed the Snow White remake.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

@theprestige
Pretty much, yes. That's the current narrative pushed by Hollywood.

I mean, I've used it as an example before, but The Woman King told you before anyone even had the time to actually see it, that if you don't go buy a ticket, you're actively opposing black women leads. Never mind that the majority those who were opposing the movie for glorifying the unit who enslaved their ancestors were blacks, and probably half of them women. But you must forget all that and support those pushing the revisionist narrative because they're WOKE, so nobody who isn't a literal misogynist and racist wouldn't actively give them money for it.

And mind you, I'm not even using an example I disliked. I actually liked it, for the sheer balls size to make a movie glorifying a unit that was literally more evil than the SS. Not an argumentum ad hitlerum, they were literally more evil than anything else I ever heard of from history. Yes, they were black women. They were also the kind who killed unarmed slaves as part of their basic military training, like you'd use a cardboard target in a modern army. And that's just the tip of the iceberg, so to speak.

The gals who wrote it must need special skirts to walk around with those giant steel balls. And sound like a newton's pendulum when they walk. It's literally like making a movie about Himmler where he's the one fighting to free people from the French concentration camps. Except worse... And then telling you YOU'RE the nazi if you don't like it.

You know what? I can respect the hell out of that. And I actually wish more would do something crazy like that instead of taking the safe route of making a reboot of the same old stuff. Like if it sounds like the craziest stuff possible, compared to any previous movie or book? DO IT. Nike. And I for one am giving it a thumbs up.

 

[TheGoldcountry]

Both mythical characters, nothing wrong with adding a little diversity there. Are people actually going to argue that mermaids, dragons, ghosts, elves, trolls, dwarfs, fairies, witches, warlocks, can only be white?? That would be very silly.

I knew a Notre Dame football fan who was pissed when years back they had a black Leprechaun on the sidelines of each game. It was very important to him that the Leprechaun had to be as Irish as St. Patrick. Yes, I know.

 

[dudalb]

Problem is -- and what actually irks me about the current "woke" push -- is that it doesn't actually matter why you think you won't or don't like it or the other movies. It doesn't matter if you just like animated girls more than Homo Sapiens, or whatever other criterion you might have. You'll be told (indirectly, not personally) that you're just finding excuses for your racism, sexism, xenophobia, etc, because OBVIOUSLY only those oppose it, and everyone who's not a reactionary and one or more of those, MUST love it. Anything else like actor performance, story, plot, pacing, etc, has completely exited the talk, and you would love it if you weren't actively opposed to female actors and BIPOC.

And, sadly, the narrative has been lapped up by BOTH sides of the brouhaha.

On one hand you have those lapping it up and CHEERING some poor storytelling as 'finally a story about women! No more having all movies made for the boys and their silly hero's journey!' (Actual dumbassery I got to read online. Never mind that the same monomyth structure has been used very successfully even for romance flicks for girls.)

And the opposing side is even sadder. They actually ALSO lapped up the explanation that it's done for some actually 'woke' agenda, and shoehorn themselves into the 'the anti-woke crowd is against it' narrative.

If you actually read or listen what those critics have to say (at least the most visible ones), they actually dissect those previous remakes you didn't like, and have some very solid explanations as to what's wrong with the writing and characterization. But they seem to believe that actually the reason they got an insufferable Mary Sue Karen actually is because someone actually cares about female empowerment or some other form of progressive message. (As opposed to a bunch of sociopathic executives who provably don't give a flip about their actual human employees, just jumping on whatever publicity bandwagon promises a ton of free publicity.) So they feel like they have to fight off the 'woke' root cause, or at least denounce it, although none of their criticisms actually require any of that.

Really none of that actually hinges on gender, race, sexuality, or anything. If you flipped genders or races around for most of those Mary Sue Karen roles (as one of many examples of bad writing) and had a white anglo-saxon male being just about omnipotent and acting like an ass to blacks and/or women, just because he dislikes those, not only it wouldn't make the story better, it would cause even more revulsion in most people. If you did a complete ass-pull deus-ex-machina to have him win against a woman, again, same deal.

Which is just flippin' sad, because it allows the real complaints to be swept under that rug.

I mean, even about the black Ariel, there are non-woke complaints, such as the scenes being in the trailers being so dark that it's at times impossible to even really make out what the also dark protagonist is DOING. Or the changes to the story. (Whether you are ok with them or not, is up to you and none of my business, but they're explanation enough for why some people complain, without -ism or -phobe being the most parsimonious go-to.) But nope, what filtered to most people, you included (not pointing fingers or anything) is just that those opposing it are anti-woke

My problem with Mermaid is that from the footage I have seen it will be just a cold and souless as the other Disney Live action remakes.

 

[dudalb]

Both mythical characters, nothing wrong with adding a little diversity there. Are people actually going to argue that mermaids, dragons, ghosts, elves, trolls, dwarfs, fairies, witches, warlocks, can only be white?? That would be very silly.

I am NOT arguing that. I am saying that so far the Disney live action versions of their animated films have pretty much sucked, and from what I have seen Mermaid looks to be no better.

 

[bruto]

I suspect that some of those corporations, despite the apparent tendency of many not to think far past the next quarterly report, are playing a long game.

Time will pass and just like the ones who vowed never to watch baseball again in 1947, or swung axe handles in 1964, the people now all pissed off at Budweiser and Disney and Mattel and whoever -some may grow up, some may even learn shame, but they all will get old, and then they'll die; and their grandchildren will drink Bud at the Dodgers' games, and their children will clamor for Disneyland, and the smart businesses will still be there, and still raking in the dough, because they can't pretend people are something they're not, and they can't just assess a tax. Their customers are voluntary, and they will sell what the real people in real life will buy.

My opinion of Disney is not very high, but they're doing business the way business is done, and I hope they spank De Santis until he cries.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

De Santis deserves all the kinky spanking he can get. Just saying that sometimes the enemy of my enemy is not really my friend either, or he's just pretending to be for his own benefit, or he's really not any better in practice. See how the alliance with Stalin fell apart after WW2

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

My problem with Mermaid is that from the footage I have seen it will be just a cold and souless as the other Disney Live action remakes.

Yes, that much I understood. _I_ have no reason to distrust your word about that. Just saying that you'll be (collectively, not individually) explained away as oh, it's just those racist and sexist anti-woke who are refusing to go see it anyway

 

[Gulliver Foyle]

Problem is -- and what actually irks me about the current "woke" push -- is that it doesn't actually matter why you think you won't or don't like it or the other movies. It doesn't matter if you just like animated girls more than Homo Sapiens, or whatever other criterion you might have. You'll be told (indirectly, not personally) that you're just finding excuses for your racism, sexism, xenophobia, etc, because OBVIOUSLY only those oppose it, and everyone who's not a reactionary and one or more of those, MUST love it. Anything else like actor performance, story, plot, pacing, etc, has completely exited the talk, and you would love it if you weren't actively opposed to female actors and BIPOC.

And, sadly, the narrative has been lapped up by BOTH sides of the brouhaha.

On one hand you have those lapping it up and CHEERING some poor storytelling as 'finally a story about women! No more having all movies made for the boys and their silly hero's journey!' (Actual dumbassery I got to read online. Never mind that the same monomyth structure has been used very successfully even for romance flicks for girls.)

And the opposing side is even sadder. They actually ALSO lapped up the explanation that it's done for some actually 'woke' agenda, and shoehorn themselves into the 'the anti-woke crowd is against it' narrative.

If you actually read or listen what those critics have to say (at least the most visible ones), they actually dissect those previous remakes you didn't like, and have some very solid explanations as to what's wrong with the writing and characterization. But they seem to believe that actually the reason they got an insufferable Mary Sue Karen actually is because someone actually cares about female empowerment or some other form of progressive message. (As opposed to a bunch of sociopathic executives who provably don't give a flip about their actual human employees, just jumping on whatever publicity bandwagon promises a ton of free publicity.) So they feel like they have to fight off the 'woke' root cause, or at least denounce it, although none of their criticisms actually require any of that.

Really none of that actually hinges on gender, race, sexuality, or anything. If you flipped genders or races around for most of those Mary Sue Karen roles (as one of many examples of bad writing) and had a white anglo-saxon male being just about omnipotent and acting like an ass to blacks and/or women, just because he dislikes those, not only it wouldn't make the story better, it would cause even more revulsion in most people. If you did a complete ass-pull deus-ex-machina to have him win against a woman, again, same deal.

Which is just flippin' sad, because it allows the real complaints to be swept under that rug.

I mean, even about the black Ariel, there are non-woke complaints, such as the scenes being in the trailers being so dark that it's at times impossible to even really make out what the also dark protagonist is DOING. Or the changes to the story. (Whether you are ok with them or not, is up to you and none of my business, but they're explanation enough for why some people complain, without -ism or -phobe being the most parsimonious go-to.) But nope, what filtered to most people, you included (not pointing fingers or anything) is just that those opposing it are anti-woke

Or sometimes you're just trying to hide the truth from yourself.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

Right. Thanks for illustrating the whole "I know better than you what you think if you're not on my side" bulverism I was talking about. Aka the fallacy of trying to explain what secret reasons or even psychological problems would make you think X (e.g., that a movie is genuinely bad) instead of addressing whether X is true or not.

Which is my problem with what the discourse has degenerated into. You can't actually think that some character sucks, or the plot sucks, if you weren't secretly against female or person of colour characters... some... what?... over 50 years after it was actually anything new? Like, most people alive today weren't even born before that wasn't the norm. But naaah, let's just assume they're just against some change... that they can't even have ever seen a baseline from which that would register as a change. But the studio says it's a change, so let's juts take that as gospel, like good little fanboys

 

[Roger Ramjets]

If you didn't know X is a lesbian^*, do you need to be a mysoginistic homophobe to dislike that character?

Lesbians are hot, especially when they are making fun of or sticking it to the opposite sex. And the best ones are those that you don't know are lesbians. So what's not to like?

 

[Dr. Keith]

Honestly I'm not seeing any problem at all. Even the shareholders at Budweiser are just getting smacked around by the invisible hand. That's a feature, not a bug.

Tell me about the shareholders suffering. How bad has it been?

 

[Dr. Keith]

@theprestige
Pretty much, yes. That's the current narrative pushed by Hollywood.

I mean, I've used it as an example before, but The Woman King told you before anyone even had the time to actually see it, that if you don't go buy a ticket, you're actively opposing black women leads. Never mind that the majority those who were opposing the movie for glorifying the unit who enslaved their ancestors were blacks, and probably half of them women. But you must forget all that and support those pushing the revisionist narrative because they're WOKE, so nobody who isn't a literal misogynist and racist wouldn't actively give them money for it.

And mind you, I'm not even using an example I disliked. I actually liked it, for the sheer balls size to make a movie glorifying a unit that was literally more evil than the SS. Not an argumentum ad hitlerum, they were literally more evil than anything else I ever heard of from history. Yes, they were black women. They were also the kind who killed unarmed slaves as part of their basic military training, like you'd use a cardboard target in a modern army. And that's just the tip of the iceberg, so to speak.

The gals who wrote it must need special skirts to walk around with those giant steel balls. And sound like a newton's pendulum when they walk. It's literally like making a movie about Himmler where he's the one fighting to free people from the French concentration camps. Except worse... And then telling you YOU'RE the nazi if you don't like it.

You know what? I can respect the hell out of that. And I actually wish more would do something crazy like that instead of taking the safe route of making a reboot of the same old stuff. Like if it sounds like the craziest stuff possible, compared to any previous movie or book? DO IT. Nike. And I for one am giving it a thumbs up.

So, is Disney going broke alone or all of Hollywood? I’m trying to make money here and need to know who to short.

 

[Lplus]

Right. Thanks for illustrating the whole "I know better than you what you think if you're not on my side" bulverism I was talking about. Aka the fallacy of trying to explain what secret reasons or even psychological problems would make you think X (e.g., that a movie is genuinely bad) instead of addressing whether X is true or not.

Which is my problem with what the discourse has degenerated into. You can't actually think that some character sucks, or the plot sucks, if you weren't secretly against female or person of colour characters... some... what?... over 50 years after it was actually anything new? Like, most people alive today weren't even born before that wasn't the norm. But naaah, let's just assume they're just against some change... that they can't even have ever seen a baseline from which that would register as a change. But the studio says it's a change, so let's juts take that as gospel, like good little fanboys

Welcome to the ISF...

 

[Gulliver Foyle]

Right. Thanks for illustrating the whole "I know better than you what you think if you're not on my side" bulverism I was talking about. Aka the fallacy of trying to explain what secret reasons or even psychological problems would make you think X (e.g., that a movie is genuinely bad) instead of addressing whether X is true or not.

Which is my problem with what the discourse has degenerated into. You can't actually think that some character sucks, or the plot sucks, if you weren't secretly against female or person of colour characters... some... what?... over 50 years after it was actually anything new? Like, most people alive today weren't even born before that wasn't the norm. But naaah, let's just assume they're just against some change... that they can't even have ever seen a baseline from which that would register as a change. But the studio says it's a change, so let's juts take that as gospel, like good little fanboys

Just pointing out certain facts. If you didn't think they applied to you, you wouldn't have got het up about them.

It is absolutely a fact that people lie to themselves about their biases and prejudices.

 

[Donal]

Problem is -- and what actually irks me about the current "woke" push -- is that it doesn't actually matter why you think you won't or don't like it or the other movies. It doesn't matter if you just like animated girls more than Homo Sapiens, or whatever other criterion you might have. You'll be told (indirectly, not personally) that you're just finding excuses for your racism, sexism, xenophobia, etc, because OBVIOUSLY only those oppose it, and everyone who's not a reactionary and one or more of those, MUST love it. Anything else like actor performance, story, plot, pacing, etc, has completely exited the talk, and you would love it if you weren't actively opposed to female actors and BIPOC.

can you post some evidence of that? Because most folks I know who are praising the inclusion are well aware of how shallow corporate "wokeness" is and also that you can absolutely not care for a movie without being offended by inclusion.

Is that just an Extremely Online Person thing?

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

Just pointing out certain facts. If you didn't think they applied to you, you wouldn't have got het up about them.

It is absolutely a fact that people lie to themselves about their biases and prejudices.

Right. So more bulverism with a sprinkle of baiting? Whether people lie to themselves doesn't prove anything about their position being right or wrong.

In fact, the fun stuff about such dumb trolling is: the same "argument" you presented, applies to yourself too, rather than being an automatic win. Unless you're NOT one of the people, the same applies to yourself. You could just as well be the one lying to yourself as to why you're supporting a position instead of the other. Similarly, if you didn't think you needed to reassure yourself, you wouldn't feel a need to post that kind of crap. Hey, I'm just applying your logic

Fortunately, none of that matters.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

can you post some evidence of that? Because most folks I know who are praising the inclusion are well aware of how shallow corporate "wokeness" is and also that you can absolutely not care for a movie without being offended by inclusion.

Is that just an Extremely Online Person thing?

Hard to say if the stuff I read online is just the extreme stuff or not. I must confess I didn't make a reliable statistic of the internet. Most of what I base it on is various review sites and what the studios themselves say in various interviews, so yes, at the end of the day it is itself just corporate "wokeness". Exactly who else is aware, I wouldn't know.