Go Afghans!

Pardalis said:
How will this come to fruition with the Taliban back in power?

Who is going to ensure the country's stability for true democracy to flourish?

The Taliban and the warlords aren't going to go away once NATO leaves. These are just words, DC, she doesn't say anything on what should be done and how.
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Her actions speak more than a thousand words.
So she gathered her few clothes and books and was smuggled across the border - and "the best days of my life" began. She loathed being forced to wear a burka, being harassed on the streets by the omnipresent "vice and virtue" police, and being under constant threat of being discovered and executed. But she says it was worth it for the little girls. "Every time a new girl joined the class, it was a triumph," she says, beaming. "There is no better feeling."
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Enough people with this kind of courage, and they'll form an unstoppable movement.

And let's be honest, Pardalis. "We", i.e., the West, didn't give a rat's *** about Afghanistan until 9/11, and then only because the Taliban harboured OBL. We're 8 years down the line, OBL hasn't been found, and we're really not much better off. Only that the bastard who rules Afghanistan is now "our bastard".
 
Pardalis said:
It's not a perfect world. We can only work we what we've got, and Afghanistan is mostly tribes and ethnic clans, just having them to sit together to form a government, even if a corrupt one, is an achievement by itself. It's a start.

At least now they've got a constitution.
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the values of real democracy, human rights and women's rights will only be won by the Afghan people themselves.

still stands.

thats how i understood her, she is fighting those tribal thinking. and only if Afghan people themself change and understand and prefer Democracy, they will have real democracy.

When people dont care or dont understand their democratic system, its not worh anything.
 
DC said:
the values of real democracy, human rights and women's rights will only be won by the Afghan people themselves.
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What does that even mean? Do the Afghans even know what democracy is? They've never had a democratic government before, they've had theocracy, monarchy, communism, everykind of government imaginable but never a democratic one.

Afghans are also 99% Islamic, and they have a very tribal and patriarcal tradition, how are they supposed to naturally know about human rights and equality for women?
 
Pardalis said:
What does that even mean? Do the Afghans even know what democracy is? They've never had a democratic government before, they've had theocracy, monarchy, communism, everykind of government imaginable but never a democratic one.

Afghans are also 99% Islamic, and they have a very tribal and patriarcal tradition, how are they supposed to naturally know about human rights and equality for women?
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You do realize that there was a time in Europe where we had no Democracy, not even in Switzerland.
and still we eventually learned and grew into it.
 
DC said:
You do realize that there was a time in Europe where we had no Democracy, not even in Switzerland.
and still we eventually learned and grew into it.
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Yes I know, and it took centuries and quite a few wars.

Democracy has to be tried, by trial and error. You can't give up on the first attempts. Of course it's far from being perfect now, but it's much better than under Taliban rule.
 
Pardalis said:
Yes I know, and it took centuries and quite a few wars.

Democracy has to be tried, by trial and error. You can't give up on the first attempts. Of course it's far from being perfect now, but it's much better than under Taliban rule.
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i dont think she does want to give up what has been reached, i think she wants to very very quickly improve it, so it atleast deserves the name Democracy.

it will take them very very long to change the general thinking so they can reach Human rights and especially Woman rights. But those are things that cannot be forced, they must come from the people themself.
 
Pardalis said:
Stability is what they need in order for any social progressive movement to even begin to exist there.
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Why?

Another question. What would you think, Pardalis, if suddenly tomorrow Afghanistan had a regime that wasn't quite democratic, but that:
- instituted secular laws
- banned the burqa
- instituted land reform
- banned usury
- banned forced marriages
- instituted women's right to vote
- let women into political life
- promoted education, for both sexes

Would you support it?
 
Pardalis said:
And how is the second kind supposed to be defeated? With what army, what weapons and how do they think they can win?

What exactly is she proposing once NATO leaves?



This is the real world, DC. This conflict needs real people fighting other real people with real guns.
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Yet, is it working? Is the war even winnable?
 
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Pardalis said:
Stability is what they need in order for any social progressive movement to even begin to exist there.
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There was little stability for blacks in the American South for much of US history.

Bear in mind, I'm not calling for the withdrawal of US troops and letting the Afghans sort it out for themselves, just pointing out that your statement isn't totally accurate.
 
ddt said:
Her actions speak more than a thousand words.

Enough people with this kind of courage, and they'll form an unstoppable movement.

And let's be honest, Pardalis. "We", i.e., the West, didn't give a rat's *** about Afghanistan until 9/11, and then only because the Taliban harboured OBL. We're 8 years down the line, OBL hasn't been found, and we're really not much better off. Only that the bastard who rules Afghanistan is now "our bastard".
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Yeah, the US should have done nothing after 9/11 but get a few meaningless UN resolutions passed.
The ability of Some Euros to pretend that Islamic extremism is not a big problem amazes me.
 
dudalb said:
Yeah, the US should have done nothing after 9/11 but get a few meaningless UN resolutions passed.
The ability of Some Euros to pretend that Islamic extremism is not a big problem amazes me.
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are the people arguing against homeopathy, pretending that there is no illnes?
 
dudalb said:
Yeah, the US should have done nothing after 9/11 but get a few meaningless UN resolutions passed.
The ability of Some Euros to pretend that Islamic extremism is not a big problem amazes me.
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I missed the cue that this thread was supposed to be a US vs. Euro flamefest. :rolleyes:

Ms. Joya says that many of those warlords that got into power after the Soviet-supported regime was toppled, were as worse as the Taliban in their Islam fundamentalism; and those very same warlords are now in power again.

And as long as it's only Islam fundamentalism that stays within Afghan borders, we should be very cautious to interfere. Ms. Joya is absolutely right that a drive for democracy, for women's rights etc. must come from the people itself, and cannot be imposed by foreigners.
 
dudalb said:
The ability of Some Euros to pretend that Islamic extremism is not a big problem amazes me.
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There is more incidence of this occuring in the European States than America?

It's false, this continuous accusation that Europe is a pussy when it comes to Islamism. It was a European country that published the Mohammed cartoons, whilst the US bent over backward not to offend Muslims with its media refusing to publish them.
 
Undesired Walrus said:
Bear in mind, I'm not calling for the withdrawal of US troops and letting the Afghans sort it out for themselves, just pointing out that your statement isn't totally accurate.
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Well this is what Joya seems to think should happen. She seems to think the Afghans will singlehandedly get rid of the Taliban and the warlords (even though they're Afghans too) and instigate a free true democracy respectful of women with no army and apparently no means at all except their sheer will power. How about that!
 
ddt said:
Why?

Another question. What would you think, Pardalis, if suddenly tomorrow Afghanistan had a regime that wasn't quite democratic, but that:
- instituted secular laws
- banned the burqa
- instituted land reform
- banned usury
- banned forced marriages
- instituted women's right to vote
- let women into political life
- promoted education, for both sexes

Would you support it?
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Yes, but is that realistic? Is that even something remotely possible in the near future?

What are you getting at?
 
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