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GMO Foods; What's the general scientific opinion?

Note I said "most likely" impossible. Not "certainly" impossible.

A distinction that makes little difference.


"The fact no one has done this, even though the rewards would be massive means that it's most likely impossible." -- sounds like woo-woo and crack-pottery to me.
 
I don't quite understand what you are getting at...

Imagine a $100 bill lying on the floor of the airport lobby. It has lain there for days and thousands of people have passed it.

There are two possible reasons.

1. No one have bothered to pick it up. This is less likely.
2. There is some factor preventing people from picking it up. This is more likely.

That's simply Occam's razor. Not really woo woo or crack pottery...
 
...Oh and BTW I don't need a study to know what is wrong with glyphosate, and it has nothing to do with the GMO. If glyphosate does exactly what it is supposed to do with no side effects at all, it is immensely harmful to the environment. From a certain perspective, that's its purpose, to kill biodiversity so the only plant left living is the crop. It is supposed to be harmful to the environment, while hopefully not harmful to humans.

...really? How so?

How about eliminating the need for haber process nitrogen altogether?

This relates to my current work, but I'm far from the answer at this point.

...But if you develop a system that actually encourages "weeds" at the same time uses them to boost your crop yields and total productivity, then you'd have something. ;) That particular breakthrough is far closer than people realize...

Like the work with AMF in no-till conditions?

I don't know how it works if you decide to do your own feed study without ethical oversight, I just know I can't come close to touching an experimental mammal without tons of oversight. (Invertebrates are still except from such scrutiny, AFAIK, beyond basic containment issues.)
 
...really? How so?
Any herbicide is designed to do just that, kill plants. This results in also killing all that plant's symbiotic microbiology in the soil. It's one thing to do that to a single plant or even a small area, quite another to kill everything over thousands or even millions of acres, and replace it with a single species or two like maize and/or soy. The environmental effect of that is staggering, if unseen because it is under the ground.


This relates to my current work, but I'm far from the answer at this point.
Not everyone is so far.

Like the work with AMF in no-till conditions?
No till actually improves the AMF inocula in the rooting zone over tillage systems of over 15 cm +/-. No argument there. AMF is an obligate and mutualistic beneficial organism. It requires a living root to survive, and the spores don't typically last long in the soil. So more important to building their numbers than tillage or no tillage, it is important to always have a large number of living roots 12 months a year. Further, there are a large number of AMF associated with different types of plants. Monocultures typically result in large die offs of AMF even under the best of conditions, simply because they co-evolved with a different host. But conventional agriculture doesn't provide "the best of conditions". Far from it.
 
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Any herbicide is designed to do just that, kill plants. This results in also killing all that plant's symbiotic microbiology in the soil...

I find this to be way overgeneralized.

No till actually improves the AMF inocula in the rooting zone over tillage systems of over 15 cm +/-....

I have a friend that I've been trying to help sort his AMF data from soil/roots in till/no-till. The multiple nuclei that can (or cannot, opinions vary) be highly variable per spore introduces difficulty here. He needs better primers, though, as he's getting tons of nematode sequences, too. I find the work on carbon-nitrogen exchanges interesting, too.

But conventional agriculture doesn't provide "the best of conditions". Far from it.

No argument there.
 
Any herbicide is designed to do just that, kill plants. This results in also killing all that plant's symbiotic microbiology in the soil. It's one thing to do that to a single plant or even a small area, quite another to kill everything over thousands or even millions of acres, and replace it with a single species or two like maize and/or soy. The environmental effect of that is staggering, if unseen because it is under the ground.

Glyphosate directly kills microbes, but are you saying that removing a weed is bad because the soil bacteria associated with it are removed as well?
 
Glyphosate directly kills microbes, but are you saying that removing a weed is bad because the soil bacteria associated with it are removed as well?
There is no perfect answer to that, but it is part of my research. In many cases I have found that "weeds" really are beneficial. Pigweed is beneficial to corn especially for example, and dandelions are beneficial to almost everything. The exact reasons why I am sure are at least partly related to the roots, and likely the soil microbes associated with them, but the answer is not so easy to make simple statements. There is also the microclimate above the ground, beneficial insect habitat, direct plant to plant communications, and a host of other subtle interactions.

But no one can deny that it is also possible for weeds to harm your crops as well. So blanket statements can't be made. One thing is certain, to work, the crop must be the dominant plant, not the weeds.

I really am not ready to post my own project on a skeptic forum yet. I need more hard data and results that can be repeated. However, be sure that in my test plots there are actually more "weeds" than crop in both number and total biomass. Yet I get better yields than my neighbors with less water and other inputs. I use no haber process nitrogen or herbicides, and am getting very close to no outside inputs at all. Nor do I plow, till, weed or cultivate in any way what-so-ever in my test plots. I will be applying for a grant to test carefully controlled AH integration and its effect on GAP guidelines this fall. If the results are proven safe, I think it will be the key to tip the balance in favor of 100% sustainable with no inputs at all. (except the occasional biological pest control) Yet significantly outproducing conventional in both profit and yield. We will see. If I get the grant so I can afford lab testing, I will publish, even if the results are less than expected.

ETA PS. I am not a scientist. I am a producer. However, the USDA Sustainable Agriculture Research and Education (SARE) Program has a Producer Grant Program to promote producer's research related to sustainable agriculture. I will be cooperating with Phd scientists so that proper scientific testing and analysis can be done. Not funded yet though, so for now, everything I say can be considered anecdotal. That's why I am keeping my own project off skeptic science forums for now. However, I didn't come up with this all myself. I have spent years researching what others are doing, and that research I can and do post. Here is something someone else is doing. Blue Heron Farms Notice he has strips of "weeds" between his beds and they provide many benefits.
 
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..
ETA PS. I am not a scientist. I am a producer. However, the USDA Sustainable Agriculture Research and Education (SARE) Program...

Don't have to be to do science. I applied for one of those last cycle and was denied. Considering no one here has received one and we're not the land grant institution in there here parts I didn't actually expect to get one. It was good practice, anyway.
 
Don't have to be to do science. I applied for one of those last cycle and was denied. Considering no one here has received one and we're not the land grant institution in there here parts I didn't actually expect to get one. It was good practice, anyway.
Luckily one of my cooperators is a soil scientist from the local land grant institution. So I have a chance. We will see. He will help me best he can whether I get the grant or not, simply because the project details interested him. In fact he is helping me now, even without a grant or any payment of any type for consulting. Simply because even having not reached my goal of 100% sustainable, it is still of significant benefit to the ecology. Just as an example. When you monitor ecosystem health you look for certain indicators , sometimes called sentinels, that can tell you about the whole ecosystem. Amphibians as environmental sentinels They are the first to arrive when healthy and the first to leave when problems arise. In other words a "canary in a coal mine" approach. Worms are a good example for soil. One of the best sentinels is amphibians. Their highly porous skin makes them highly susceptible to environmental pollutants and toxins like pesticides. Last year I documented tree frogs living in my tomato test plot.:jaw-dropp I am not in some marshy area. We just came off several years of drought. There are no lakes or forests near, although about 5 miles away is a lake with surrounding woods, and several patches of dry scubland/trees around. Yet there they were, happily munching on any insect pests who dared attack my tomatoes. Must have migrated during the spring rains. Toads and scorpions spiders etc..... at ground level too, rooting through the mulch. Swarms of native pollinators each morning kept my plants producing, even when temps reached 95 deg F +. Even 100 deg F + many cultivars still were setting fruit. All those things are considered "impossible". Ask any commercial grower. In fact at late summer, a local commercial grower came by my stand and screamed quite angrily at me that "You didn't grow those!", "Impossible!". So angry that even the field behind me clearly visible, couldn't convince. Was sure I was "cheating" by importing in tomatoes from out of state. Strange but true story.
 
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...He will help me best he can whether I get the grant or not, simply because the project details interested him. In fact he is helping me now, even without a grant or any payment of any type for consulting...

That's commonly my experience. I know very few researchers that are all about the money. Well, honestly I don't know any, but I'm sure they exist. Just about everyone is willing to help out.
 
No one wants or needs corn? Why does the elevator give me money for it? Seems like odd behavior. And they don't even keep it, they sell it to other people who don't even want or need it!

So you won't be answering Scrut's question then?
:rolleyes:

Apparently not. Which speaks volumes.

In another thread, the claim was made that 98% of farmers have been forced off their land. I suppose one could say that no one wants their corn, since...well....they don't have any. :rolleyes:
 
Thanks, on FB lately I've started following Mother Jones as they've actually been posting articles that are science-oriented regarding GMOs and vaccines which I found nice.
 
For those who want to educate themselves, and have a good laugh at the anti-GMO nutwads, I invite you to join this group on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/GMOLOL/

A lot of members are very well versed in the science, and you get to see examples of anti-GMO idiot "thinking" from around the web. A great group.

That's a fun group. A more serious group is the GMO Skepti-Forum. Knigel does a very good job moderating and enforcing a respectful exchange with anti-GMO types. While in practice this means that many will often come in telling folk "the truth" and leaving in a huff when their claims are respectfully questioned and explored, there is productive engagement with them more often than what one might usually expect.

As an aside, another person who impresses me in his abilty for productive exchange with anti-GMO types is Dr. Kevin Folta (who I believe might be a member of the JREF forums).
 
That's a fun group. A more serious group is the GMO Skepti-Forum. Knigel does a very good job moderating and enforcing a respectful exchange with anti-GMO types. While in practice this means that many will often come in telling folk "the truth" and leaving in a huff when their claims are respectfully questioned and explored, there is productive engagement with them more often than what one might usually expect.

As an aside, another person who impresses me in his abilty for productive exchange with anti-GMO types is Dr. Kevin Folta (who I believe might be a member of the JREF forums).

Awesome. I just joined.

And yes, Kevin Folta is a great resource. The anti-GMO nutters hate him.
 

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