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Global warming

More fodder for the Mann Hockey-Stick dead vs. alive discussion can be found here:

Bias and Concealment in the IPCC Process: The "Hockey-Stick" Affair and It's Implications

The most disturbing quote so far in it is-


David Deming has told a US Senate hearing that, some time after the
publication of his 1995 Science paper on Borehole temperatures, he was approached by the media and other climate scientists interested in any anthropogenic warming implications. He claims to have been contacted by one climate scientist who expressed the view that “we must get rid of the Medieval Warm Period. ”



If this is in fact right, I would think it would shake any sane person's belief that the IPCC is an unbiased organization whose reports we should trust. There is even more stuff in the paper itself.

It's not an unnamed scientist that told him that, I'd just have to look around a bit for his name. Just for kicks and grins and giggles, let's check google -
Personalized Results 1 - 10 of about 107 for "medieval ice age".
Personalized Results 1 - 10 of about 578 for "european ice age"
Personalized Results 1 - 10 of about 383 for "european warm period".
Personalized Results 1 - 10 of about 453,000 for "little ice age"
Personalized Results 1 - 10 of about 125,000 for "medieval warm period"
Well, shucks. Guess Mann, Gore and the latest IPCC revisionist history attempts have not managed to convince people that Little Ice Age and Medieval Warm Period did not exist.

Funny, though if you go to the results for the "European warm period" and the "Medieval ice age", who comes up in the results - RC, rabbit, the usual suspects.
 
Inescapably, the weak arguments of AGW are wrapped up with politics.

There's none so blind as will not see. But you actually see, only backwards. It's remarkable.

The arguments against AGW - which is a present and observable fact - mostly consist of assaults on scientists integrity, implications of political influence on science, and argumentum ad wouldn't-it-be-awful. In the meantime AGW is going on all around, and has been for thirty years. Ever since the accumulation got large enough to start making its presence felt.

The weakness in your position is demonstrated when you try to shift attention away from this crucial period - averaging out sea-level rise since 1900, for instance, because that dilutes the recent increase with seventy-years when AGW influence was inconsequential. It has not been inconsequential over the last thirty years, and it's getting more influential as CO2 accumulates. It's swamping Solar Cycles, and all the other cycles, because none of them have this constant upward trend. Which isn't going to go away.

I've said my piece before on the politics of AGW : there'll be no coordinated global response, there will be local and regional responses to the consequences. As to the consequences, I won't get into what they might be but there will be consequences. A world with six-odd billion people used to one climate is not going to shift to another without some horrible grinding of the gears.
 
The weakness in your position is demonstrated when you try to shift attention away from this crucial period - averaging out sea-level rise since 1900, for instance, because that dilutes the recent increase with seventy-years when AGW influence was inconsequential. ......

No, that's peer reviewed science we have been discussing that does that. It's not correct to say it averages out level rise since 1900, either.

I understand your concern, but that's just not what the articles are trying to do or what I have any interest in doing.

If the published, peer reviewed studies indicate that you don't have as much "alarming sea level rise" to cling to, well, you just have to deal with it.

Shouldn't people be HAPPY if the scientists find that sea level rise is 1.3 mm with no recent increase instead of 2.8 to 3.1 mm and recent increases?

One does wonder.....
 
It's not an unnamed scientist that told him that, I'd just have to look around a bit for his name.

Do get back to us on that. And why he wasn't named at the time. there was probably a climate of fear behind it.

Just for kicks and grins and giggles, let's check google ...

There comes a time when one must put off childish things. So let's not.

Well, shucks. Guess Mann, Gore and the latest IPCC revisionist history attempts have not managed to convince people that Little Ice Age and Medieval Warm Period did not exist.

Most people haven't actually heard of them. If they did, they probably wouldn't care much.
Funny, though if you go to the results for the "European warm period" and the "Medieval ice age", who comes up in the results - RC, rabbit, the usual suspects.

Belief in the MWP and LIA is revisionist history. And amateurish. Before they became politicised the mainstream historical view was that these were regional phaenomena that were influential in that sense. Efforts were made to find the same historical effect in the wider world, and proved fruitless. A realisation dawned that they loomed large (the LIA more than the MWP, which was looked for later) in North Atlantic history, but not elsewhere.

Only since the "natural cycle" has been conscripted to the anti-AGW cause has there been such assiduous data-mining to come up with some odds-and-ends with serious error-bars, flourished as trophies. How many actual historians can you summon to your camp, if the call goes out?

You said once that CO2Science has an article a week confirming the MWP therefore it's important now. That was more than a week ago, I'm sure. What have they come up with since? Set 'em up, I'll try and knock 'em down.
 
The arguments against AGW - which is a present and observable fact - mostly consist of assaults on scientists integrity, implications of political influence on science, and argumentum ad wouldn't-it-be-awful. In the meantime AGW is going on all around, and has been for thirty years. Ever since the accumulation got large enough to start making its presence felt.


That's about how I see it. I've been reading these threads for the past, what is it now, ten months, following up on the 'skeptical' arguments, and I'm not impressed. Nitpicking, misrepresentation and hiding in the past seems to be the thrust of it.

Whereas the 'other side' has a coherent synthesis of the vast majority of the peer reviewed literature on climate change.

Guess which one I'm going with...
 
No, that's peer reviewed science we have been discussing that does that. It's not correct to say it averages out level rise since 1900, either.

I understand your concern, but that's just not what the articles are trying to do or what I have any interest in doing.

If the published, peer reviewed studies indicate that you don't have as much "alarming sea level rise" to cling to, well, you just have to deal with it.

Shouldn't people be HAPPY if the scientists find that sea level rise is 1.3 mm with no recent increase instead of 2.8 to 3.1 mm and recent increases?

One does wonder.....

One does indeed wonder sometimes.

This is probably related to another thread? The "Science of ..." one? What the hey, it would make as little sense anyway.

People would probably be happy to find that sea-level rise has only been 1.3mm per year over the last thirty, but what people have found is that it's increased much faster. In that 2-3mm range.

I don't see their happiness quotient going up because some scientists (you say "the scientists", can you see how weird that is? The very concept of the scientists?) tell them that, properly averaged and adjusted, it didn't happen at all. I don't feel waves of relief coming off that image.
 
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Something about models, and a claim about an unnamed scientist.

Nothing about the Mann et al reconstruction.

Well, yes, I was just quoting from part of the paper that I thought was particularly disturbing. The idea that it's ok to remove uncertainty about things just because it's a political environment? Please... that's ridiculously unprofessional.

Furthermore, the quote is from the history section of the paper talking about what leads in to the Mann reconstruction existing... basically, the initial IPCC reports didn't have much to show in terms of verifying AGW because the temperatures were not very far off the MWP, so they needed some graph to show that the MWP and little ice age were just blips compared to the current warming trend. Oddly enough, the Mann hockey stick graph suddenly came about for the following report and the MWP and little ice age were downplayed, as if on cue almost.

Many people still believe that the MWP and little ice age didn't really exist or were very minimal. Which camp do you fall under for that?

Since you've ploughed through it already, what is the IPCC not independent from? By the presented argument.

It means it's not independent in the sense that with the group running the IPCC appears to have a bias towards the AGW hypothesis rather than being objective observers that are reporting what is going on in the scientific community to the world at large. Also, that some of the researchers that head up the IPCC reports or various chapters have a stake in the research and tend to highlight their own research very specifically (for example, the large presence of the Mann hockey-stick graph when he was heading up the IPCC report).

(You do realise, of course, that none of this is going to make the warming go away? Dissing the IPCC, gnawing on Mann and Hansen and the et al's back in the '80's, conjuring up dark conspiracies and a culture of fear in the scientific world ... It's not going to help. mhaze's cycles aren't going to help. David Rodale's Solar Cycling isn't going to help - quite the opposite on the upswing. The warming is going to go on, and contrarian influence will continue to wane as they recede further into the past.)

Except that, well, for the most part the IPCC are the people telling us that AGW is happening the way it is and that it'll cause the problems they say it'll cause. If you discredit that and take it away, AGW really isn't that big of a deal. I'm not sure about you, but the vast majority of the information in support of AGW that I see out there is directly referenced from the IPCC report. Heck, look at the first dozen or so pages of this thread... have you counted just how many responses are along the lines of "read the IPCC report, it'll answer everything for you"?

If the IPCC is indeed hiding facts and editing their IPCC reports to push the bias of the paper towards a specific direction, we should NOT trust the IPCC anymore. Simple as that.
 
Belief in the MWP and LIA is revisionist history. And amateurish. Before they became politicised the mainstream historical view was that these were regional phaenomena that were influential in that sense. Efforts were made to find the same historical effect in the wider world, and proved fruitless. A realisation dawned that they loomed large (the LIA more than the MWP, which was looked for later) in North Atlantic history, but not elsewhere.

Nevermind the question in my previous post... I guess this answers it. Could you point me to a good paper that offers some evidence for that? (I'm guessing if you are saying it's been researched and proved fruitless there must be a paper out there, right? I don't mean this to sound snide mind you, I'm honestly curious to read some papers that talk about this.)
 
Rather than have you wade through some warmer script on this issue, here are the few pieces of scientific evidence in favor of that position -

http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=767
So let’s turn the question around - what is the evidence AGAINST a warmer MWP?

(1) bristlecone and foxtail ring widths (especially those collected by Graybill in the 1980s) are wider in modern times than in medieval times. (OK, the NAS panel has discounted this, but it’s obviously been used over and over as evidence against a warmer MWP in the spaghetti studies.)

(2) ring widths at Yamal, adjusted for age, are wider than in modern times than in medieval times;

(3) the percentage of coldwater diatoms offshore Oman is higher in the 20th century than in MWP;

(4) dO18 levels in some of Thompson tropical ice cores and in the overall average is higher than modern levels;

(5) combinations of the above 4 proxies under a weighted average with small numbers of other mostly nondescript proxies show mid-20th century indices slightly higher than the highest corresponding index in the MWP (the spaghetti graphs);

(6) supposedly some evidence from Antarctica according to the NAS Panel, but they did not provide any evidence and I know what it is;

(7) 5000-year organics from Quelccaya (Thompson 2006, cited by NAS panel)
As usual, to find actual facts go to to skeptical site.

Of course, the evidence in favor of MWP far out weighs these.
 
One does indeed wonder sometimes.

This is probably related to another thread? The "Science of ..." one? What the hey, it would make as little sense anyway.

People would probably be happy to find that sea-level rise has only been 1.3mm per year over the last thirty, but what people have found is that it's increased much faster. In that 2-3mm range.

Facts interfere with your beliefs.
 
I am more interested on your thoughts as to the critiques mentioned here: The Skeptics Guide to AGW

I've posted this link several times, but have yet to see any rebuttals of the contents on this thread.
Very well. Let's begin with the definition of AGW that the author chooses to use:

Before we start,since this paper is by definition somewhat in opposition to the core of Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW) theory, it would be useful to state in simple terms just what that theory is. The strong AGW hypothesis is roughly as follows:
1.The world has been warming for a century, and this warming is beyond any cyclical variation we have seen over the last 1000 or more years, and beyond the range of what we might expect from natural climate variations.
Already we have a problem. What "natural climate variations?" The Earth's climate has, in the past, been considerably warmer than it is now; it's also been considerably colder, and both of those have happened in the very recent past, geologically speaking. In the deep past, it's been a great deal warmer, and a great deal cooler. Given that there were no people around at any of these times, it's fair to call all of that "natural."

What would be fair to say is that, given Earth's current orbit, current axial inclination, the current observed solar activity, the current configuration of the continents (having one over a pole is almost always indicative of an ice age in progress, for example), and the state of the atmosphere aside from the gases we are putting into it, we would expect the Earth to be cooler. We would also expect the temperature to be relatively stable. Instead, it appears to be warmer than we would otherwise expect, and it appears to be getting warmer still over time. It also appears, given our current state of knowlege of paleoclimate, that it is warmer now than any time in the last thousand years, and it may be warmer now than any time in the last hundred and ten thousand years; and if it is not now, and the temperature continues to climb as we have observed in the extremely recent past, a century or so, then it surely will be warmer than any time in the last hundred and ten thousand years.

2.Almost all of the warming in the second half of the 20th century, perhaps a half a degree Celsius,is due to man-made greenhouse gasses,
particularly CO2.
First, this ignores the hiatus around and after WWII, caused apparently by the injection of sulfates and other aerosols into the atmosphere in large quantities. These aerosols artificially suppressed the temperature for a period perhaps as long as thirty years, up until the 1970s when pollution laws began to be put into place to deal with them. As a result, the first twenty years of the second half of the 20th century represent a statistical anomaly that is being ignored by this statement.

Second, CO2 is the largest individual contributor, but may not be as much as half of the problem. Other gases also have warming effects, and many artificial gases have been released that have strong warming effects, primarily chlorofluorocarbons. Methane is also a strong warming gas, and as the global population increases, and as the standard of living increases and more protein is consumed, more methane is produced for a variety of reasons. It is all of these together that are creating the problem, not CO2 alone.

3.In the next 100 years, CO2 produced by man will cause a lot more warming, from as low as three degrees C to as high as 8 or 10 degrees C.
Again, CO2 is not alone. It is merely the majority culprit. There are other things that will have their own effects, and they also will most likely need to be dealt with; CO2 is merely the highest nail, and therefore gets the hammer first.

4.Positive feedbacks in the climate, like increased humidity, will act to triple the warming from CO2, leading to these higher forecasts and perhaps even a tipping point into climactic disaster
Hmmm, a nit-pick; that's "climatic" disaster. "Climactic" refers to a climax, not a climate. Other than that, I don't see a problem, but I'd like a lot more specific statement of what precise feedbacks are involved here. There are feedbacks ranging from environmental, to climatic, to physical, that we know about- and doubtless yet more we do not. I think it is a vast oversimplification to limit the discussion essentially to a single specific feedback.

5.The bad effects of warming greatl outweigh the positive effects,and we are alread seeing the front end of these bad effects today (polar bears dying,glaciers melting,etc)
It is entirely possible that we are already seeing an effect on the salmon catch from this, and that's quite a lot of protein that might not be available to eat soon if that's correct. The effects extend a lot further than polar bears and glaciers, right into your local supermarket, if that's the case. I'd like to see a much more realistic evaluation of what we may be talking about, in terms of food people eat every day, rather than far away polar bears and glaciers. This strikes me as propaganda.

6.These bad effects, or even a small risk of them, easily justify massive intervention today in reducing economic activity and greenhouse gas production
First, I don't see why economic activity has to be reduced to accomplish the goal of greenhouse gas reduction. Second, I don't think a fair review of the potential effects has been done here, and I don't think it was in the body of the document, either; screw polar bears and glaciers, let's talk about the supermarket and your dinner table. Third, I object to "easily" as propaganda; such a decision cannot be "easy" in any sense of the word, even if the effects were to be as dire as this individual apparently intends to make them out to be. Fourth, it's not a small risk any more; serious economic consequences loom on the horizon right now no matter what we do. The question now is not, can we avoid it, but rather, how bad is it going to get.

I don't see any sort of objectivity here. This just looks like another denier hit piece to me. I could go on and dissect the science, but why bother? It's obvious that with this start, it's going to be filled with misrepresentations of real science ("primarily CO2," "small risk," "polar bears and glaciers"), propaganda, and overlooked evidence. If I thought that the author would respond to criticism I might take the time; I don't, based on what I see here. The entire goal of the piece is not to promote skepticism, but to spread more propaganda and provide cover for people with a political agenda. That political agenda has gotten us to the point where the Arctic Ocean damn near melted entirely this past year. I see no point in playing this political game further; my response is now, "that's woo," just like when someone tries to stuff Jebus or crank physics or homeopathy up my nose.
 
That's about how I see it. I've been reading these threads for the past, what is it now, ten months, following up on the 'skeptical' arguments, and I'm not impressed. Nitpicking, misrepresentation and hiding in the past seems to be the thrust of it.

Whereas the 'other side' has a coherent synthesis of the vast majority of the peer reviewed literature on climate change.

Guess which one I'm going with...

Beats me.

Would you be going with Gore, the Valiant Defender of the Hockey Stick of Warmers, supported by overlapping and multiple confirming lines of research and a clear consensus of the overwhelming majority of scientists throughout the world?




If so, then I suppose we should discuss the hockey stick, which must then also be supported by overlapping and multiple confirming lines of research and a clear consensus of the overwhelming majority of scientists throughout the world.
.
 
There you go with 'Warmers' again... and oh look, there's Al Gore too. Followed up by the hockey stick.

Pure gold :)
 
Beats me.

Would you be going with Gore, the Valiant Defender of the Hockey Stick of Warmers, supported by overlapping and multiple confirming lines of research and a clear consensus of the overwhelming majority of scientists throughout the world?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_142244739ac8177fa7.png

If so, then I suppose we should discuss the hockey stick, which must then also be supported by overlapping and multiple confirming lines of research and a clear consensus of the overwhelming majority of scientists throughout the world.
.

A bit of help - here are the talking points from Gristmill.org. Just copy and paste the script and presto! There's an answer.

http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2006/12/14/01828/236

Ooopss...those darn skeptics have already read that stuff and have answers ready, many of which are in the comments to the Grist threads. Oooppss....

Maybe Realclimate? That's safer because they censor comments, so searching Hockey Stick there would provide material for defense of the Hockey Stick, without the need to worry about any counterarguments because they would not have been in the comments because those comments are censored.

Indeed.... An entire website set up to defend the Hockey Stick....
 
Nevermind the question in my previous post... I guess this answers it. Could you point me to a good paper that offers some evidence for that? (I'm guessing if you are saying it's been researched and proved fruitless there must be a paper out there, right? I don't mean this to sound snide mind you, I'm honestly curious to read some papers that talk about this.)

Since I'm talking about history I'd have to point you to a number of books, probably too many to mention. I was taught in the 60's that a global LIA was a Eurocentric error; I don't recall the MWP coming up, but reading the history of the period there's no obvious sign of it. The scattered examples that are brought up to support the idea are not climate-related. Lots of other things were going on, as ever.

The LIA and MWP were first brought into the AGW debate to support the argument that "these things just happen, and they've happened before". The people that brought them up were not historians, they were people with vague memories of Frost Fairs and the Greenlanders getting frozen out - an old-fashioned view, but then many of them were old. World history is a lot more complicated than that.

If you look at the Mann et al reconstructions, and the other independent reconstructions, you'll see that the MWP and LIA are in there, just not with the prominence expected in the old-fashioned Eurocentric view. This immediately became not informative (as it is), but firm evidence of a scientific conspiracy. As it remains; Mann is one of the arch-demons of the anti-AGW case, along with Hansen and Al Gore. All the other scientists involved are simply minions.
 
Apologies if this is old news but - the BBC has an article by an IPCC member, Dr. John Christy, who is sceptical about the climate modelling used and say that there has been political pressure to overemphasise the effects of warming BBC News - No consensus on IPCC's level of ignorance

Well that's a deep pile of pony. Unsuprisingly.

Right at the top

"scientists are mere mortals casting their gaze on a system so complex we cannot precisely predict its future state even five days ahead"

Confusing weather with climate. How stupid is that? In the middle of summer, can we predict whether it'll be cooler or warmer six months on? I think so, and yet this is such a complex system that - according to Christy's logic - we can't.

What sad-act's like Christy can't cope with is that the warming has been and is going on, not in models but in practice. Out in the biggest baddest analogue climate model there is. Who are you going to trust, Christy or your own lying eyes?

As for the rest : politicised science, conspiracy, group-think (the other side's, of course), Kyoto, yadda-yadda. Same old same old. No science. Nothing new. Purest dross.

Look at this :

'

The signature statement of the 2007 IPCC report may be paraphrased as this: "We are 90% confident that most of the warming in the past 50 years is due to humans."
We are not told here that this assertion is based on computer model output, not direct observation. The simple fact is we don't have thermometers marked with "this much is human-caused" and "this much is natural".'

The conclusion is based on observations, not computer models. Fixated as he is on the unreal world of conspiracies and models, Christy apparently can't grasp that. And of course we can get a very good idea of what the causes are because we've been observing lots of things closely over the last thirty years - which is the relevant period, in which accumulated CO2 has broken through as a significant influence. Christy's "natural" is essentially woo; there's this natural "something" that's causing the energy accumulation, unobserved because we haven't recognised it.

It could be "mental energy", for instance - more people means more mental energy means a warmer world. Or maybe : more adolescents means more poltergeists, moving objects cause heat through friction, and so a warmer world.

As to Christy's anecdote about the three Europeans, I don't believe it for a moment. It's just too pat. Europeans, no less, and saying exactly what Christy wants to report? I don't think so.
 
If so, then I suppose we should discuss the hockey stick, which must then also be supported by overlapping and multiple confirming lines of research and a clear consensus of the overwhelming majority of scientists throughout the world.
.

The only valid reason for bringing up the hockey-stick is to support the argument that events like the current warming have occurred before and therefore AGW is not confirmed by said current warming. This requires that the Mann et al reconstruction (and the other independent reconstructions) are grossly in error.

Are there "overlapping and multiple confirming lines of research and a clear consensus of the overwhelming majority of scientists throughout the world" to support that idea?
 

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