Global warming


There's the thousand years, so my mistake :o .

Of course, the ice-dynamics models on which the prediction is based have not performed terribly well against reality over the intervening few years. They rather underestimate the rate of loss, in Greenland and elsewhere. This is hardly surprising, since modelling something as complex as the Greenland icecap is deeply difficult. Apart from the behaviour of the ice itself there are all the interfaces - ice-atmosphere, ice-ocean, ice-meltwater, ice-ground - but there's the topography to consider. Damn, that's hard.

Climate models are a cinch in comparison.
 

Yeah. Well, those fall straight into my "alarmist category" and for pretty good reason. Here's why. Greenland does not exist in isolation and cannot melt all by it's lonesome. So let's try to straighten the mess out.

You really need to consider the entire planet glacial balance, right?

There is no perfect understanding of that but what is monitored is found here.

As noted in the chart the planet currently loses about 300 km cubed of ice per year. That translates into a sea level rise of 0.6 mm. The generally accepted rule of thumb is that thermal balance is 2/3 of the rise, added water is 1/3. Adding the thermal rise to the 0.6 and you get 1.8mm. So that's roughly where that number came from.

Going the same way with the above mentioned alarmist scenario, you can see that they don't even get the numbers right. 3.85M cu km melting (all of Greenland, as your quote....) yields about 7 meters of sea level rise. Now add the thermal expansion.

Another (relatively non-alarmist, flawed but still authoritative) source for the 20 feet rise, is not the entire melting of Greenland but other studies referenced in the IPCC report 1000 year worst case projection.

Now we need to worry about what, exactly?:rolleyes:
 
Moreover, it neglects feedback loops... and from that front it seems like there was some underestimation.

This argument's been going on so long that it's easy to lose sight of the fact that we can actually start observing feedbacks instead of speculating about them (based on the science, but speculation all the same). Ice-dynamics modellers are playing catch-up with real outcomes, and will be for quite some time, IMO.


... those who think overpopulation isn't a problem....

It won't be for long. It never is. Death is Nature's way of right-sizing.

Scientific ignorance has exponentially scary results.

Yes, but the madness always peaks. It's a truism that in a space-limited system - such as a planet's surface - exponential changes are time-limited, usually catastrophically.

I'm pretty sold on the Great Wave view of history, which envisions a curved saw-tooth representation of human "progress". Relatively long periods of stability and growth with relatively short periods of crisis in-between, when the exponential effect kicks-in wickedly. We're in one of those crisis periods right now. Interesting times. Not what I'd have ordered for myself (I'm satisfied with reading about them in security and comfort) but there it is.

One very clear trend through history is that science, technology, and rational thought keep on prospering. That's a long wave that has never yet peaked. I think they'll come out of this crisis even stronger than they were back in the 50's and 60's. Absence of jet-packs notwithstanding :mad: .

Religion today won't help anybody through what's coming, and will be the talking-point and laughing-stock of near-future generations. Denial of AGW, with its necessary assault on science itself, will be lumped into the same basket.

(Notice how easily I predict times when I'll be dead already :) .)
 
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You really need to consider the entire planet glacial balance, right?

Not if you're considering speculative land-purchase in Greenland. A market to get into right now; there are hedge-funds already casting an eye across it. It may look like buying ice, but you're actually buying the land beneath it. Very, very cheaply. And this is the New England commuter belt of the near-future. You don't even have to wait that long to cash-in; buy now, sell to a hedge-fund in a year or two.
 
Yeah. Well, those fall straight into my "alarmist category" ...

If a thousand-year timescale is alarming, that's one wide category.

and for pretty good reason.

What springs to mind is that you're easily alarmed.

Here's why. Greenland does not exist in isolation and cannot melt all by it's lonesome.

But it will feel like it to poor Greenland. And just as much water will abandon it for lower ground.

So let's try to straighten the mess out.

You really need to consider the entire planet glacial balance, right?

See above. If Greenland's the issue, as Safe-Keeper posted and I lost track of, Andean glaciers (for instance) are extraneous.

There is no perfect understanding of that but what is monitored is found here.

As noted in the chart the planet currently loses about 300 km cubed of ice per year. That translates into a sea level rise of 0.6 mm. The generally accepted rule of thumb is that thermal balance is 2/3 of the rise, added water is 1/3.

There's a "rule of thumb" already :confused: ? There's no established tradition here. Thermal expansion of the oceans is calculated from estimated (via observed and theoretical extrapolation of) oceanic temperatures and the known physical behaviour of water. The effect of glacial melt-water is calculated from the observed and extrapolated glacial retreat. There's no connection between the two, no "two parts of this to one part of that" that constitute a rule-of-thumb. If it happens to be so at some transitory point it's a passing correlation, not a connection.

Adding the thermal rise to the 0.6 and you get 1.8mm. So that's roughly where that number came from.

Where did this "rule-of-thumb" originate, and what scientist referred to it?

Going the same way with the above mentioned alarmist scenario, you can see that they don't even get the numbers right.

Well, they're only scientists. What numerate are they likely to be?

3.85M cu km melting (all of Greenland, as your quote....) yields about 7 meters of sea level rise.

That's about the 20 feet (imperial measure) quoted as the contribution of a thoroughly melted Greenland icecap to sea-level.

Now add the thermal expansion.

Well, yeah, there'll be that other problem alongside the 7m contribution of the Greenland icecap exit. That's not the point being made. The thermal expansion will depend on ocean temperature, which is minimally connected to what might be streaming (or sliding) off Greenland. You're surely not suggesting that the thermal expansion will be twice the Greenland effect because Nature goes by rule-of-thumb.

Another (relatively non-alarmist, flawed but still authoritative) source for the 20 feet rise, is not the entire melting of Greenland but other studies referenced in the IPCC report 1000 year worst case projection.


The IPCC does a thousand year projection and defines a worst case? I'd love to see that worst case; I bet I could come up with a worse one :cool: .

Now we need to worry about what, exactly?:rolleyes:

Not what's going on in 3007, that's for sure. If I was trying to alarm anybody, I'd use something more immediate.
 
You're surely not suggesting that the thermal expansion will be twice the Greenland effect because Nature goes by rule-of-thumb.

What, you want to talk about just "extapolating the 1 to 2 mm out to a thousand years" and not give me the right to make up a quick rule of thumb? The ratio was from the IPCC reports. I'm not interested in figuring thermal expansion of oceans, but my opinion is your guess on it is as good as the models. It does not matter. You appear to be focusing on Greenland. Total ice balance is all that matters, right?

The IPCC does a thousand year projection and defines a worst case? I'd love to see that worst case; I bet I could come up with a worse one :cool: .
No need to. Hansen, Lovelock and others appear to do that job quite nicely. Oops. They are supposed to be scientists. Hmm... I might have a little trouble with that.

Not what's going on in 3007, that's for sure. If I was trying to alarm anybody, I'd use something more immediate.
Or play the Gore game and just leave the 1000 year timescale out. Follow the seas rushing inland with pleas that we gotta act now.
 
Yeah. Well, those fall straight into my "alarmist category" and for pretty good reason. Here's why. Greenland does not exist in isolation and cannot melt all by it's lonesome. So let's try to straighten the mess out.

You really need to consider the entire planet glacial balance, right?

There is no perfect understanding of that but what is monitored is found here.

As noted in the chart the planet currently loses about 300 km cubed of ice per year. That translates into a sea level rise of 0.6 mm. The generally accepted rule of thumb is that thermal balance is 2/3 of the rise, added water is 1/3. Adding the thermal rise to the 0.6 and you get 1.8mm. So that's roughly where that number came from.

Going the same way with the above mentioned alarmist scenario, you can see that they don't even get the numbers right. 3.85M cu km melting (all of Greenland, as your quote....) yields about 7 meters of sea level rise. Now add the thermal expansion.

Another (relatively non-alarmist, flawed but still authoritative) source for the 20 feet rise, is not the entire melting of Greenland but other studies referenced in the IPCC report 1000 year worst case projection.

Now we need to worry about what, exactly?:rolleyes:

Reading the first sentence in those Greenland links is all it took:
The Greenland ice sheet is all but doomed to melt away to nothing, according to a new modelling study. If it does melt, global sea levels will rise by seven metres, flooding most of the world's coastal regions.
On the one hand Greenland is doomed in the first sentence, then the second begins with If. Now that's reassuring doublespeak. Add the modeling study and what you've got is junk science. It must be true if 'Nature' published it, correct?

A more scientific approach:
http://meteo.lcd.lu/globalwarming/Chylek/greenland_warming.html
Temperature increases in the two warming periods are of a similar magnitude, however, the rate of warming in 1920-1930 was about 50% higher than that in 1995 - 2005.
So much for "it's warming faster than it ever has".


Not to forget:
http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/data/greenland/vintheretal2006.pdf
http://www.co2science.org/scripts/CO2ScienceB2C/subject/s/summaries/sealevelgreenland.jsp
http://www.marshall.org/pdf/materials/132.pdf (covers MWP as well)

And perhaps the ball breaker:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/07/070705153019.htm

How many times must it be shown that Greenland warming is neither catastrophic nor "unprecedented"? It is understandable why AGW history re-writers keep attempting to breathe life into a dead horse, which is why it must be kicked every so often to prove it is still dead. Over 200 well documented research papers, and you guys are still putting bandaids on the hockey stick. Amazing.

As for all this unprecedented warming we've had the last 30+ years, it's hard to find. CD, would you point it out for us? Ah, that's right, it's 50 years down the road. Reviewing the numbers from 28 years of satellite monitoring:
satellitedata.jpg



IPCC models show methane levels continuing to rise, yet it has stopped flat. Any explanation? Did cows stop flatulating and belching? Looks like a another parameter adjustment is due in the models.

IPCC in 2001 "projected" 21 ft. sea level rise. A bit off there.

CD, you say you base your rock solid predictions of non-stop catastrophic warming on physics and simple reasoning (whatever that means). Would you please cite the physics paper that explains how a 2+C rise in temperature comes about from a doubling of CO2? Also the climate sensitivity. Have fun wading through the monotony of confusion.

Now back to "unprecedented" warming. For the heck of it, I looked up U.S. temperature records. Strange, well over 90% are pre-1970, and that's using surface measurements.
http://ggweather.com/climate/extremes_us.htm

Let's get down to the brass tacks. You are relying on climate models. I will rely on old Mr. Sun. We are currently coming out of solar cycle 23, overdue for SC24. The last 9 years have been flat for AGW. You say it will continue to warm, I say it most certainly will not based on current solar indicators. Keep in mind there is lag response. Watch what happens in the next year or two.

For future reference, please stop posting those silly "fact sheets" which are little more than opinions, appeal to Authority and unsubstantiated garble by journalists.
 
On the one hand Greenland is doomed in the first sentence, then the second begins with If. Now that's reassuring doublespeak. Add the modeling study and what you've got is junk science. It must be true if 'Nature' published it, correct?
It actually says that the Greenland ice is all but doomed to melt, validating the later 'if'. /nitpick

Over 200 well documented research papers, and you guys are still putting bandaids on the hockey stick.
'Putting bandaids on'? What an exceptionally weird way of describing our support of a model supported by loads of evidence. Look, the original hockey stick was a hoax. New studies, however, proved the hoax to be miraculously accurate. Source.

So much for "it's warming faster than it ever has".
I don't recall saying otherwise. What people say is that the ice is melting faster than it ever has. Big difference there.

How many times must it be shown that Greenland warming is neither catastrophic nor "unprecedented"?
:confused:I don't recall calling it catastrophic, as a matter of fact I've just spent some posts trying to clear up just that misconception: Al Gore made it sound as if the Greenland melting was an immediate danger, omitting that the soonest it could cause a 20ft rise in sea levels was a thousand years into the future.

As for all this unprecedented warming we've had the last 30+ years, it's hard to find.
Not quite. For starters, there's a very helpful chart in your own post, slightly below the above quoted statement, that shows the warming trend as of late quite clearly.

Now back to "unprecedented" warming. For the heck of it, I looked up U.S. temperature records.
You realize what global warming means, right? That the global temperature is, and is going to increase on average, not necessarily that US temperature will. If you have four numeric variables, 3, 3, 3 and 3 (12 in total, 3 on average), and they change to 2, 3, 4, 5 (14 in total, 3.5 on average), the total number and average have both increased, even though not all variables have.

Now we need to worry about what, exactly?:rolleyes:
I hope, for your dignity's sake, that you're not trying to make it sound as if a 20ft sea level rise as of 3007 is what we're worried about. I, for one, am concerned with far more... present-day consequences of AGW.

I will rely on old Mr. Sun.
Which one:D?

We are currently coming out of solar cycle 23, overdue for SC24.
Waitaminute... how do you know that the Sun will go into another solar cycle and how that cycle will play out? Didn't you say you distrusted climate models? How can it be possible to predict weather trends on the Sun but not on Earth?

Some info on the Sun here, by the way. He's been exonerated a long time ago.
 
Further to this, I came to this thread when it was already well-developed (if that's the appropriate term) and was struck by it's early plot-arc.


Post 1 : OP question.

Post 2 : Schneibster answers OP question.

Posts 3-8 : various links and references relevant to the OP question (one from your good self)

Post 9 : Diamond accuses scientists of deliberate fraud on a wide scale. Really wide.

Lie #1: I accuse 3 scientists of scientific fraud. The wide scale was inserting that fraud into the IPCC TAR.

Post 10 : mhaze agrees with him.

Post 11 : mhaze expresses preference for contrarian posters

Post 12 : JoeEllison posts something uncharitable (as is his wont) but not targeted at any previous poster or post.

Of course CapelDodgy has never said anything uncharitable. That would be a) beneath him and b) wholly untrue.

Post 13 : mhaze is back to the widespread scientific fraud.

Lie #2: mhaze is reporting what has already been claimed by me. Despite lots and lots of desperate denial, the Mann Hockey Stick remains a scientific fraud.

Post 14 Big Al's in there claiming that people are being "flamed to cinders". :confused:


Overwrought? Or hysterical? We report, you decide.

On page 1 mhaze introduces the term "alarmism" and on page 2 (I think) brings in Al Gore. Who saw that coming? Well, quite a few of the older-timers here ...

This posturing for the high ground is truly pathetic. Please continue...

Diamond turns up with accusations of scientific fraud only remotely related to the OP, later brings up the CO2 lag at the end of inter-glacials (the
irrelevance of which, and explanation for, he's been repeatedly provided with), and "historical revisionism". Once again, right on cue.

Lie #3: I have never been provided with this evidence, despite me asking many times for it. Rather than posture for the moral high ground that you don't occupy perhaps you'd like to provide it?

Oh and carbon dioxide rise causing (ie at least preceding) temperature rise is a classic piece of historical revisionism on a par with the Hockey Stick. It has never happened.



You'll appreciate why exasperation has to be actively suppressed, which can lead to tetchyness. So can certain behaviour, for instance

Oh pulease. Don't mention varwoche because after all he's on the side of the angels.


Diamond to Megalodon :"Clean up on aisle 6. Enormous can of stupid logical fallacies burst wide open"​

Megalodon : "BTW, care to show those logical fallacies?"​

Diamond : "Why certainly. Let's go through them at a pace you can understand. I'll type extra slowly for clarity."​

Megalodon : "Having read your post, I can say it didn't help... try thinking next time."​

Diamond :" And back to the insults. Can't deal with the science, so just insult instead."​
How can anyone not want to slap someone like Diamond? I think the restraint generally shown is remarkable. I did let go a bit on another post just recently, but he asked to be spared my "passive-aggression" (politeness to you and me) so I spared him the passive. Always ready to oblige, me. Even for someone who's called me a racist more than once.

Perhaps that's because you deny historical evidence on the racist grounds. Which makes you a racist.

In any case, for someone who has claimed (rather hysterically) to have very few presuppositions, you spend pretty much all of your time reinforcing your fixed beliefs with airy claims to "consensus" and posturing for a supposed "moral high ground" which is in the middle of a swamp of innuendo that you hilariously ignore.

There's a debating tactic (it quite possibly has a name) which involves provoking your antagonist then, once the desired response has been elicited, start shouting "Ooh, look, I'm being suppressed! Come and see the violence inherent in the system!". It's seldom used by the side with the stronger arguments.

So that's why you always keep referring to a supposed "scientific consensus" and "a majority of scientists" but when push comes to shove, its not an argument from popularity for you are too weary from repeating the evidence that you have never supplied? BS.

At this point I'll bring up the claim by the AGW-is-real camp that the Bush White House has use political placemen in federal institutions in an attempt to keep scientists "on-message" vis-a-vis Climate Change. (For instance, referring to "climate change" rather than "global warming" if they really really think they should bring the subject up at all.) I can see how that might be presented as equivalent to the "I'm being suppressed!" argument, but it isn't, for the simple reason that there's no claim that it worked worth a damn. It simply had no chance in the good ol' US of A. Gotta love the place in principle, and quite a lot in practice.

What the Bush Administration thinks is irrelevant (as well as unlikely IMHO)

The cry of "help, help I'm being repressed" came from arch global warmer James Hansen. Funnily enough a cool quarter of a million dollars from Theresa Heinz Kerry's Foundation in return for endorsing John Kerry for President, helped calm him down. But we won't mention that, because its another "inconvenient truth". And then James Hansen got straight back into trying to prevent any critical examination of greenhouse warming by referencing them as "deniers" and "shills".

We won't mention how the fossil fuel companies have been licking up to the environmentalists, sponsoring conferences on green issues, and generally dunking themselves progressively (I was going to say liberally, but its an insult to liberalism) in greenwash. We won't mention the enormous carbon footprints of Al Gore or the rockstars who appeared in "Live Earth" that most people can never afford to emulate.

Never mind Capeldodgy. And don't mention it.
 
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'Putting bandaids on'? What an exceptionally weird way of describing our support of a model supported by loads of evidence. Look, the original hockey stick was a hoax. New studies, however, proved the hoax to be miraculously accurate. Source.

Well, that is indeed an interesting subject. Maybe the graphs should all then be labeled "New Improved Hockey Stick Replacing old Scientifically Fraudulent Hockey Stick".:)

But Mann et. al. (Originator of Hockey Stick) is still using his highly questionable RE statistical method and if I recall correctly, has not released his experimental data for independent review.

I hope, for your dignity's sake, that you're not trying to make it sound as if a 20ft sea level rise as of 3007 is what we're worried about. I, for one, am concerned with far more... present-day consequences of AGW.
What consequences if any, may there be as a result of this alleged problem that one should be concerned with? That was my question. For example, I think, based on very crude math, that we might have 0.5 C temperature rise from a doubling of CO2 by the year 2050. And that is a "don't care" scenario, right?

Waitaminute... how do you know that the Sun will go into another solar cycle and how that cycle will play out? Didn't you say you distrusted climate models? How can it be possible to predict weather trends on the Sun but not on Earth?

Some info on the Sun here, by the way. He's been exonerated a long time ago.
Is this really a road you want to go down? If so please first read the recent paper by Lockwood et al that has pleased all the true believers in AGW and supposedly "nailed the coffin shut on the sun".

Here is the BBC summary.

Here is Lockwood's paper.
 
Lie #1: I accuse 3 scientists of scientific fraud. The wide scale was inserting that fraud into the IPCC TAR.

Never mind Capeldodgy. And don't mention it.

I'd like to clear something up, Diamond. You've several times accused people of being Marxist. I realize this is an international forum and we may well have some "modern Marxists, progressive socialists, etc" of various flavors who are perfectly content with being labeled as such. But were these comments intended as factual assertions based on behavior and attitude or what?

This question is relevant to the discussion as follows: One might argue that strong government controls, taxation and the like were the "only solution to AGW" and that the only government style that could do this was somewhat totalitarian, eg., Marxist.
 
On the one hand Greenland is doomed in the first sentence, then the second begins with If. Now that's reassuring doublespeak.
Another shameless distortion.

First, these are the words of a journalist, not the scientists who conducted the study. Second, if you had actually quoted the article, it would have have helped readers see how utterly ridiculous your criticism is.
Why in Odin's name are you citing goofy sources such as CO2 Science and the Marshall Institute?

Further, you need to quote the precise text that supposedly makes your point. A list of links doesn't cut it.

How many times must it be shown that Greenland warming is neither catastrophic nor "unprecedented"?
Straw man.

Why in Odin's name are you pointing to an unattributed graphic at an image hosting site?

IPCC models show methane levels continuing to rise, yet it has stopped flat.
Your information is outdated:
2006 Study said:
On longer timescales, our results show that the decrease in atmospheric methane growth during the 1990s was caused by a decline in anthropogenic emissions. Since 1999, however, they indicate that anthropogenic emissions of methane have risen again. link

IPCC in 2001 "projected" 21 ft. sea level rise. A bit off there.
Evidence?

Now back to "unprecedented" warming. For the heck of it, I looked up U.S. temperature records. Strange, well over 90% are pre-1970, and that's using surface measurements.
http://ggweather.com/climate/extremes_us.htm
You are confusing weather with climate.

The last 9 years have been flat for AGW.
Funny how the 9 just happens to include the el nino year! This is cherry-picking in the absurd extreme. From NASA:



(I'm not ignoring the Willerslev study -- I'm still reading up.)
 
Another shameless distortion.

First, these are the words of a journalist, not the scientists who conducted the study. Second, if you had actually quoted the article, it would have have helped readers see how utterly ridiculous your criticism is.

Wronger than wrong. We are dealing here with the specific sources provided by Safe-keeper and commented on by CP.

Why in Odin's name are you citing goofy sources such as CO2 Science and the Marshall Institute?

Further, you need to quote the precise text that supposedly makes your point. A list of links doesn't cut it.

Straw man.

You really need to consider the entire planet glacial balance, right?

There is no perfect understanding of that but what is monitored is found here. You are wasting your time pursuing the Greenland Alarm Bell.

Please either refute this or admit that Greenland melting doesn't matter one iota.
 

Methane is flat. Another source - the IPCC report, AR4WG1 Chapter 7-v2
Table 7.6, page 542, Sources, sinks, and atmospheric budgets of CH4
Nothing exciting there about methane either.

Cherry picking or nit picking a bit here, Varoche?
 
You really need to consider the entire planet glacial balance, right?
I'm again not entirely sure what to make of your post. The link you provided pointed to a site where a graph showed clearly that glaciers are melting, yet your post seems to indicate that is not so and that the site would somehow back your position up. Here's the graph in question:
glacier_mass_balance.gif

It indicates that glacial volume has gone down by 7000 cubic kilometers in forty years. At most, the loss of any given year has been 300+ cubic kilometers. That sounds like melting to me.
 
I'm again not entirely sure what to make of your post. The link you provided pointed to a site where a graph showed clearly that glaciers are melting, yet your post seems to indicate that is not so and that the site would somehow back your position up. Here's the graph in question:
http://gristmill.grist.org/images/user/6932/glacier_mass_balance.gif
It indicates that glacial volume has gone down by 7000 cubic kilometers in forty years. At most, the loss of any given year has been 300+ cubic kilometers. That sounds like melting to me.

Yes, it is melting to the tune of 300 cubic km as you note. I think I had that in my post. The 300 sounds like a lot but this is a pretty big planet we have here. In fact, it isn't really until you understand that melting 300 cubic km and putting them into the ocean ONLY gives < 1mm sea level rise, that one comprehends how big it really is.

Greenland is at the same time gaining ice in some places and losing it in others, for a net loss if I recall correctly of 100 gigaton per year.

But that does not matter - sea level rise is based on the net loss and gain of the whole planet. One is left with the issue of Greenland melting being a "very interesting local issue" but not one with world wide implications.

Some people in Greenland are definitely going to like it warming up.:)
 
On the one hand Greenland is doomed in the first sentence ...

Followed, in the same sentence, by "according to ... ". It's not a declaration that the Greenland icecap is doomed, it's reporting that there are models which predict that the Greenland icecap is all but doomed.

... then the second begins with If.

Let's look at again in its stark reality.

The Greenland ice sheet is all but doomed to melt away to nothing, according to a new modelling study. If it does melt, global sea levels will rise by seven metres, flooding most of the world's coastal regions.

It's an exemplary piece of science reporting. The "all but" to reflect the modellers expressed uncertainties, the "according to", and the subsequent "If".

Now that's reassuring doublespeak. Add the modeling study and what you've got is junk science. It must be true if 'Nature' published it, correct?

Why did you make no mention of the "all but" and the "according to" when you twisted the meaning you so obviously need out of those two sentences? Where's the doublespeak? The selective editing and borderline-demented exegesis is all yours.

And I doubt you're winning any converts by it.
 
Followed, in the same sentence, by "according to ... ". It's not a declaration that the Greenland icecap is doomed, it's reporting that there are models which predict that the Greenland icecap is all but doomed.



Let's look at again in its stark reality.



It's an exemplary piece of science reporting. The "all but" to reflect the modellers expressed uncertainties, the "according to", and the subsequent "If".



Why did you make no mention of the "all but" and the "according to" when you twisted the meaning you so obviously need out of those two sentences? Where's the doublespeak? The selective editing and borderline-demented exegesis is all yours.

And I doubt you're winning any converts by it.

The title of the article is, if I'm not mistaken Greenland ice cap 'doomed to meltdown'

Oh no, there's nothing implying certain doom in the title.

"It all depends on what the definition of "is" is."

The parsing of words is surely an art of the first order. Congratulations. Rubbing salt in wounds is not my forte', but your reasoning is silly to say the least, if not Clintonesque.

Varwoche, occasionally I use raw data and make my own charts. In this instance I don't recall if that's the case, but it was stored in my file as satellite temp data. If you doubt the data, look it up, or I'll post the raw data.

On the 20 ft. sea level rise, it in fact was not the IPCC. Sometimes it gets confusing with so many different predictions. I believe the 20+ claim is Hansen; he may have even been higher. Nonetheless, IPCC downgraded drastically from 2001. In any event, several papers disagree with all of them.

Maybe more time tomorrow; for now it is late.
 
I notice that those who bring up the "is is" issue are much less didactic over parsing of words such as that done by Alberto Gonzales and President Bush--real lies versus blowjob lies.

David Rodale you are doing the woo dance... go after semantics and obfuscation so that you can miss the point entirely. Semantics goes two ways... but the truth is singular. Words all have shades of meaning, but the facts are the same. AGW is a fact and the longer humans deny that fact or segue off into politics and semantics the harder it is to address the problem in ways that we can address it so that worst case scenarios are less likely.

Whenever I see anyone bring up that stupid "is is" thing I know I'm listening to a right wing nutcake who only follows the party line-- blind to all facts that bespeak dishonesty and corruption in those you worship while grandstanding against the minor pecadillos of others.

There's nothing quite like the right wing nut cakes in America for noticing the non existent sawdust in another's eye while ignoring the huge branch sticking out of their own. Perhaps you ought to check out some more balanced news sources and not just those that parrot what you want to hear.

Capel Dodger is coherent and apologized for his error. You are using tactics on par with a defense attorney with a guilty client-- using language and graphs to say nothing at all but to imply that AGW is a left wing alarmist conspiracy. Speaking of alarmist... have you been listening to the President who tells much bigger lies than "is is" lies? He uses fear mongering to promote his corrupt administration and his minions of blowhards who have completely lost the ability to evaluate anything critically. Also, CapelDodger is not an American so your smarmy clintonesque rhetoric is particularly obnoxious and ethnocentric.
 
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