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Global Warming may hinder hurricanes

Also, 2006 was supposed to be the worst season ever. Instead, it was the mildest.

Wrong.

Table 7.
Avg. # of tropical cyclones* which reached storm, hurricane and major hurricane status. Updated from Blake et al. (2005).


|Number of Years|Avg. # of Tropical Storms|Avg. # of Hurricanes|Avg. # of Major Hurricanes
PERIOD||||
1851 - 2006|156|8,7|5,3|1,8
1944# - 2006|63|10,6|6,1|2,7
1957 - 2006|50|10,7|6,0|2,4
1966$ - 2006|41|11,1|6,2|2,3
1977 - 2006|30|11,4|6,3|2,5
1987 - 2006|20|12,6|6,8|2,9
1997 - 2006|10|14,5|7,8|3,6
*Includes subtropical storms after 1967
#Start of aircraft reconnaissance
$Start of geostationary satellite coverage


Source: National Hurricane Center

2006 had 10 hurricanes, which is more than the average. And yes, the number of hurricanes has gone up steadily since 1851.

Once again, shanek's claims are contradicted by the harsh facts.
 
Wrong.
2006 had 10 hurricanes, which is more than the average. And yes, the number of hurricanes has gone up steadily since 1851.

No, it hasn't. The number of DETECTED hurricanes has gone up since 1851.

http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1045#more-1045

cat345animtz1.gif



Spreading your misinformation again will make you a liar.
 
No, it hasn't. The number of DETECTED hurricanes has gone up since 1851.

Spreading your misinformation again will make you a liar.

?????????

Of course we are talking about detected hurricanes. How can that be misinformation??
 
?????????

Of course we are talking about detected hurricanes. How can that be misinformation??

The problem is your temporal inference. The data does not mean what you claimed. Your claim is a lie.

The mean number of hurricanes per year has not gone up.

Instead, the mean number of detected hurricanes has gone up.

This fact is trivialy explained not as an increase in hurricanes, but as an increase in detections. Its all there in the data. The mean number of hurricanes which make landfall has not increased at all. These are the only samples free from selection bias in the data set.

Spreading your misinformation again will make you a liar.
 
The problem is your temporal inference. The data does not mean what you claimed. Your claim is a lie.

The mean number of hurricanes per year has not gone up.

Instead, the mean number of detected hurricanes has gone up.

This fact is trivialy explained not as an increase in hurricanes, but as an increase in detections. Its all there in the data.

O....K.

What is the mean number of hurricanes, detected as well as not detected?

The mean number of hurricanes which make landfall has not increased at all. These are the only samples free from selection bias in the data set.

Spreading your misinformation again will make you a liar.

Who said anything about only including hurricanes making landfall?
 
This fact is trivialy explained not as an increase in hurricanes, but as an increase in detections. Its all there in the data. The mean number of hurricanes which make landfall has not increased at all. These are the only samples free from selection bias in the data set.

There's no selection bias since 1966, when satellite coverage was established. It's hard to imagine any hurricanes going unnoticed for a good while before that - the Atlantic was already carrying a lot of regular traffic in 1850. My grandad used to sail those seas regularly, down to Boners Airs to trade beads for beef. He saw a hurricane or three, and didn't keep it a secret, believe me.

Since 1966 frequency has gone up decade by decade. Exactly what that signifies is uncertain, but given the warming that's occurred during that period it does not support the hypothesis that warming hampers hurricane production.
 
Who said anything about only including hurricanes making landfall?

rockoon explicitly posits that this is the only unbiased measure; implicit is the assumption that hurricanes making landfall is a good measure of total hurricanes. Can't say I'm convinced of the latter, I'd want to see some evidence.
 
The problem is your temporal inference. The data does not mean what you claimed. Your claim is a lie.

The mean number of hurricanes per year has not gone up.

Instead, the mean number of detected hurricanes has gone up.

This fact is trivialy explained not as an increase in hurricanes, but as an increase in detections. Its all there in the data. The mean number of hurricanes which make landfall has not increased at all. These are the only samples free from selection bias in the data set.

Spreading your misinformation again will make you a liar.
Maybe you should present your evidence for selection bias a bit more clearly. And lay off the "liar" schtick.
 
perhaps he was just giving you an opening to point out They were quietly using cyrillic to obscure the real meaning: Senior Scientists Stimulating Revolution?

Secular Socialists Suppressing Religion. Gotta love those guys :) .

I made a quick cast around for something involving "Sakharov" but it's been a long day ...
 
Since Rockoon posted up my animated gif, let me jump in here and try to explain a couple things. I've got the Hurdat data and did some research with it a couple months ago and can group the storm plots by distance from land.

Rockoon is right to make the point about there being a difference between detected and not detected. The ones closest to land are more likely to have been counted fairly accurately early on in the record. A human had to be there to make the record.

Here's a count of plots of hurricane force winds from 0-300 miles and 301-1200 miles from land for 1851-1900 and 1951-2000.

Code:
Landfall->    0-300 miles   301-1200 miles
1851-1900     3342 plots    1165 plots
1951-2000     2933 plots    1921 plots

As can be seen the 1851-1900 period had a small edge on observations within 300 miles of land, while 1951-2000 had a huge edge from 301-1200 miles from land. The most likely reason for the difference is satellites have improved detection. A ship actually had to run into a storm in the 1800's in order to record the observation if it was far from land. Not only that, but the ship had to survive and turn in it's log for it to be recorded. You won't find any Category 5 winds in the 1800's, because no ship captain is going to intentionally continue to head into a storm just to find it's highest wind speed.

A couple more things. The average wind speed at the time of storm discovery in the 1800's was around 50kts. For 1951-2000 that speed was around 30kts. 86 storms during the 1800's weren't even discovered until they were already hurricane speed, and a couple of those were in excess of 100kts at the time. All storms during the 1951-2000 period were discovered prior to reaching hurricane strength.

I see no other reason for observations to be roughly equal within 300 miles of land yet have a big difference farther out, other than detection ability. Any comparison of a simple count of observations by satellite with pre-satellite era is meaningless. It's simply a count of what was observed, not what happened.

The warm water areas of the Gulf Mexico, Caribbean, and the Gulf Stream along the east coast fall within the 300 miles range. So, water temperature can't be the cause of the difference in observation count.

Shane isn't right either, due to exaggerating by saying mildest ever, and not simply saying mild. Mildest assumes knowledge of the full history. We only have records since 1851 and those aren't even comprehensive.

I think 1851-1900 was as bad and probably worse than 1951-2000 given the disparity in observational quality between the two periods. Unfortunately there isn't any way to resolve the observational discrepancy accurately.

Just so you get an idea of what 300 miles from land looks like, here's a gif of the area that covers plots within 300 miles of land for the 1851-1900 period. The later period would look basically the same with a few hundred less plots drawn. No category 5 plots during the 1800's. Those are found almost exclusively over water, and any ships that might have encountered such winds probably didn't survive to return with records. No plots of less than hurricane force are included.

Blue = category 1,2. Red = category 3,4.

Click to enlarge.


edit... Faulty memory. Changed 100 to 86 after checking my records.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for that, BobK.

I must just point out that the disappearance of ships is indicative of storms in itself, without delivery of their logs. A severe storm, such as a hurricane, would presumably leave a footprint. The shipping and insurance business have been all over that sort of thing from way back.
 
Any lack of records due to ships sinking would only make the earlier record worse if they could be quantified. I'm only using actual wind speed and plot location records.

I just ran off the number of plots of hurricane force that were actually recorded directly over land.

1851-1900 shows 288. 1951-2000 shows 236. It appears it was pretty nasty back in the 1800's and the 1950-2000 era wasn't anything exceptional. You can even add in the 2001-2006 landfalling plots(43) and not exceed what 1851-1900 had.
 
I see no other reason for observations to be roughly equal within 300 miles of land yet have a big difference farther out, other than detection ability. Any comparison of a simple count of observations by satellite with pre-satellite era is meaningless. It's simply a count of what was observed, not what happened.

Perhaps the very presence of a coast has influences that outweigh the open ocean effects of warming. The Western end of the Hurricane Belt is a fiendishly complicated terminus, what with the Gulf and just a sliver of land this side of the Pacific ...

We know empirically that El Nino has an effect on hurricane landfall in the Gulf, and El Nino is a Pacific phaenomenon. Does it really have an equivalent effect on storm formation near Africa's Western shoulder?

Obviously comparisons made within the satellite era are meaningful. Does that data show a strong correlation between hurricane activity and hurricane landfall?
 
Any lack of records due to ships sinking would only make the earlier record worse ...

The recording of ships sinking, back when they used to sink more often than they do today, serves to improve the earlier record.

... if they could be quantified.

Actuaries will do that for you. It's what they live for.

I'm only using actual wind speed and plot location records.

The archives of Lloyds Shipping Register could be factored in, but I appreciate there's a lot of work involved.

I just ran off the number of plots of hurricane force that were actually recorded directly over land.

Where hurricane-damage insurance can be claimed ...

1851-1900 shows 288. 1951-2000 shows 236. It appears it was pretty nasty back in the 1800's and the 1950-2000 era wasn't anything exceptional.

So it can appear.

You can even add in the 2001-2006 landfalling plots(43) and not exceed what 1851-1900 had.

I'm not sure we're comparing like-with-like here.
 
The point is Lloyd's might have to pay on a missing ship, but certainly couldn't say it was cause by a hurricane if no one else reported the storm. It would have to be recorded as cause unknown or something similar. Could have been pirates.

Just as a point of accuracy. I meant to note that CFLarsen said there were 10 hurricanes in 2006 and that is not correct. There were only 5 hurricanes and 5 tropical storms. To be classified a hurricane requires achieving a wind speed of 64kts for category 1. One of the hurricanes just made it to that category by achieving a peak wind speed of 65kts. Two of them reached 105kts.(category 3) The other two were 75kts and 80kts.(category 1) Tropical storms are 34-63kts.
 
The key to being a skeptic of statistics is not only to to be skeptical of the statistics themselves, but additionally to be skeptical of the extent that conclusions can be drawn from those statistics.

Is this data set accurate?
Can this conclusion be drawn from this data set?

Or more generally:

What sort of requirements must a data set have in order to draw a particular conclusion, and does the data set in question meet those requirements?


This data set does not meet the requirements necessary to determine if the mean number of hurricanes has increased or decreased in the past 150 years. The data set required for such a conclusion has an unbiased sample from the set of all hurricanes.

No such data set exists and thats really all there is to it.

Its simple. Its obvious. Why are we arguing about it?


Now, the data set BobK's used has some value. For instance we can modify the conclusion to 'The mean number of hurricanes which make landfall has increased or decreased in the past 150 years.'

The modified data set does fit the bill because it is reasonable to suppose that an insignificant number of hurricanes that made landfall went unrecorded since 1850. Hurricanes are large enough that no matter where they made landfall a major seaport was in its path.

Now, the number of hurricanes which make landfall has decreased over the past 150 years but not by a very significant amount.

Is there any correlation with Global Warming? Perhaps BobK can make up a temporal graph of the landfall data and superimpose a plot of the global mean or regional mean (recorded at ports) temperature.
 
Who said anything about only including hurricanes making landfall?

I did.

Its the only data in the data set that isnt effected by selection bias.

The conclusion you drew (the LIE) requires data that isnt biased. You jumped to this conclusion, probably because it fullfilled your expectations, and certainly not because the conclusion had merit.

So, I held your hand (you needed it) and told you specifically which data in that data set is not biased.



You are free to farm the data set for those unbiased samples and then try to draw an unbiased conclusion. Alternately, you can accept that BobK has already done it for you.

If you repeat your misinformation, that makes you a liar.
 
I did.

Its the only data in the data set that isnt effected by selection bias.

It has it's own problems. Global warming and El Nino can affect weather patterns, so that hurricanes that head towards the US mainland are turned away, which is what happened last year. El Nino events seem to be getting stronger and longer lasting.
 

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