Moderated Global Warming Discussion

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The 'alarmists' didn't predict the collapse in the Arctic sea ice, which has been truly alarming.

The rapidity of it has certainly been surprising. It was always going to happen, and was obviously the canary in the mine, but even ten years ago I was expecting 2030 or so before the poor bird croaked. Not any more.
 
They are invariably unaware that it only took one more year of data to make the warming statistically significant at the 95% level:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-13719510
They're also unaware that the start-date was cherry-picked as the furthest point back in time where the significance was below 95% (an arbitrary figure in itself), it being 93%. This was calculated by a potty-mouthed denier called Motl, distributed on the blogosphere, and the question was fed to the BBC interviewer.

Inevitably a little more data would break the 95% level, but the message was out there and some people will repeat it into their dotage.
 
For Illinois, negative pseudo-trend for January and July to September, positive pseudo-trend for February to June and November-December. Slightly positive good-for-nothing trend for the whole year.

EDIT: Besides Illinois covering latitudes from Granada, Spain to Lourdes, France, or from the Isle of Naxos, Greece to Sofia, Bulgaria.

Sure, we also don't have the nice Mediterranean ocean right there, when Canadian high pressure settles in it used to get really cold.

:)
 
Not strange for a state that covers almost half way from the Great Lakes to the Gulf of Mexico.

I wonder if somebody noticed that all plots offered by r-j have deltas of up to 22°F (10°C) in the monthly average within a time span of no more than 4 years. But we had to read about carefully carved "trends" which swung from +0.7°F/century to -1.9°F/century depending on the interval selected. What an idiotic analysis to do if somebody is interested in what is happening locally and how it affects eggplants and cabbages, and not as a part of a great whole.

For the local interest the question is how variability has changed decade after decade.

Well, what is cool about Illinois is the difference in zones, the northern edge is on the Great lakes and borders the Wisconsin area, which has more conifers and less deciduous trees. But you go down to the way south and there are things things called hills, which you don't see on the glacial till plain. there are also pockets of very southern temperate ecology down there. So you have the start of the high norther forests and some pockets of warm temperate forests.

When I first moved here we had very harsh winters, where winter lows were often around -10F, -23C, and there were times where it got even lower. Many plants in the garden were tender perennials lavandula angustifolia, caryopteris and the like needed luck and care to get through the winter and often just got frozen. Even supposedly hardy tea roses would croak. Now they are very common in gardens and over winter nicely.
 
When I first moved here we had very harsh winters, where winter lows were often around -10F, -23C, and there were times where it got even lower. Many plants in the garden were tender perennials lavandula angustifolia, caryopteris and the like needed luck and care to get through the winter and often just got frozen. Even supposedly hardy tea roses would croak. Now they are very common in gardens and over winter nicely.

So it is your experience that winters are actually cold :eek:, but not as cold as they used to be. ;)
 
Yup - they don't argue trends...they just move....big time...good report just out

Amplified Greenhouse Effect Shifts North's Growing Seasons

March 10, 2013: Vegetation growth at Earth's northern latitudes increasingly resembles lusher latitudes to the south, according to a NASA-funded study based on a 30-year record of ground-based and satellite data sets.

In a paper published Sunday, March 10, in the journal Nature Climate Change, an international team of university and NASA scientists examined the relationship between changes in surface temperature and vegetation growth from 45 degrees north latitude to the Arctic Ocean. Results show temperature and vegetation growth at northern latitudes now resemble those found 4 degrees to 6 degrees of latitude farther south as recently as 1982.
"Higher northern latitudes are getting warmer, Arctic sea ice and the duration of snow cover are diminishing, the growing season is getting longer and plants are growing more," said Ranga Myneni of Boston University's Department of Earth and Environment. "In the north's Arctic and boreal areas, the characteristics of the seasons are changing, leading to great disruptions for plants and related ecosystems."

more
http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2013/10mar_greenhouseshift/
 
It takes 30 years to get the most reliable time to make an assessment of the long term trend.
I don't think it's wise to keep repeating this as though it's a hard and fast rule.

The global warming trend is fast enough that 30 years of data will almost certainly show it at above the 95% statistically significant level, but shorter periods will sometimes show it (e.g. 1995-2010) and sometimes not (e.g. 1995-2009), depending on whether the start and end years are in peaks or troughs of the background noise.

The recent misunderstanding in this thread has I think been due to the assumption that the harping on the '30 years' minimum for the reliable identification of the global warming trend means that any trend over 30 years is meaningful. The fact is that you need to calculate the statistical significance of any trend, regardless of the period over which the data has been collected, and show that it's more than the 95% that's generally accepted as the minimum that indicates a genuine underlying trend rather than normal background noise, before you can consider it meaningful.

The wiki article is a good primer on this stuff:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trend_estimation
 
I don't think it's wise to keep repeating this as though it's a hard and fast rule.

The global warming trend is fast enough that 30 years of data will almost certainly show it at above the 95% statistically significant level, but shorter periods will sometimes show it (e.g. 1995-2010) and sometimes not (e.g. 1995-2009), depending on whether the start and end years are in peaks or troughs of the background noise.

The recent misunderstanding in this thread has I think been due to the assumption that the harping on the '30 years' minimum for the reliable identification of the global warming trend means that any trend over 30 years is meaningful. The fact is that you need to calculate the statistical significance of any trend, regardless of the period over which the data has been collected, and show that it's more than the 95% that's generally accepted as the minimum that indicates a genuine underlying trend rather than normal background noise, before you can consider it meaningful.

The wiki article is a good primer on this stuff:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trend_estimation

Thanks. :D I think it is just my handy rule of thumb.

When Hansen is talking about a decade, he's not saying that AGW has stopped is my point, I think, he's referring to a decade and what's happening in that.
 
Sure, we also don't have the nice Mediterranean ocean right there, when Canadian high pressure settles in it used to get really cold.

:)

I meant I don't know who envy who during Winter, Chicago or Sofia. In Summer, it depends on your likings as Chicago is much much hotter. About Naxos, it's 5° warmer than Cairo, IL during Winter, and about the same in Summer. If not, at least you have cool views all the year around ;).
 
Well, what is cool about Illinois is the difference in zones, the northern edge is on the Great lakes and borders the Wisconsin area, which has more conifers and less deciduous trees. But you go down to the way south and there are things things called hills, which you don't see on the glacial till plain. there are also pockets of very southern temperate ecology down there. So you have the start of the high norther forests and some pockets of warm temperate forests.

When I first moved here we had very harsh winters, where winter lows were often around -10F, -23C, and there were times where it got even lower. Many plants in the garden were tender perennials lavandula angustifolia, caryopteris and the like needed luck and care to get through the winter and often just got frozen. Even supposedly hardy tea roses would croak. Now they are very common in gardens and over winter nicely.

Very interesting. Same patterns here. Yesterday I was looking for all the terms in English related to frost, as I couldn't find the term for heladas n3gras (literally, black frosts -the editor won't allow me to write black in Spanish-), that is, deep frosts with lows from -7°C to -15°C (some 20°F to 5°F) and sunny mornings and noons with temperatures reaching 45°F by 2 p.m., so almost every green leaf become dead and the whole area gets an appearance of burnt land. Those heladas n3gras were usual in the region 200 to 300 miles South of my location, but now they are exceptional. That means that when they happen, they wipe out all the specimens of new species that people has planted because the climate were becoming more Mediterranean (for some idiot to claim then "and they told us the climate was warming!").

I miss the Autumns of my childhood, with trees of red and gold as cold spells used to happen regularly during March and April. Now we have a mass of brownish and pale yellow during a non-stop Summer heat that refuses to go. It seems the leaves start to compost in the very trees and many species look invariably ill and start to disappear. But bougainvilleas, once cornered in conservatories and protected favourable spots, are becoming increasingly common.
 
I meant I don't know who envy who during Winter, Chicago or Sofia. In Summer, it depends on your likings as Chicago is much much hotter. About Naxos, it's 5° warmer than Cairo, IL during Winter, and about the same in Summer. If not, at least you have cool views all the year around ;).

Well, the summers here are getting worse for sure, but Cairo (which the local pronounce kay-ro) is way far south of me. The trend in summer is also for he dewpoint to be near 80F/26C, which is a recent phenomena and really unbearable.
 
Very interesting. Same patterns here. Yesterday I was looking for all the terms in English related to frost, as I couldn't find the term for heladas n3gras (literally, black frosts -the editor won't allow me to write black in Spanish-), that is, deep frosts with lows from -7°C to -15°C (some 20°F to 5°F) and sunny mornings and noons with temperatures reaching 45°F by 2 p.m., so almost every green leaf become dead and the whole area gets an appearance of burnt land. Those heladas n3gras were usual in the region 200 to 300 miles South of my location, but now they are exceptional. That means that when they happen, they wipe out all the specimens of new species that people has planted because the climate were becoming more Mediterranean (for some idiot to claim then "and they told us the climate was warming!").

I miss the Autumns of my childhood, with trees of red and gold as cold spells used to happen regularly during March and April. Now we have a mass of brownish and pale yellow during a non-stop Summer heat that refuses to go. It seems the leaves start to compost in the very trees and many species look invariably ill and start to disappear. But bougainvilleas, once cornered in conservatories and protected favourable spots, are becoming increasingly common.

Yuck, yeah the autumn foliage here is dependent on the rain fall, it varies. But wow -7C would be very low for fall here.
 
With the dew point you bring up an important point that is too often overlooked.

It's the night time record temps that are showing AGW far more clearly as that is when the radiation should occur and is being reduced by C02 and other GHG gases.

Heat Waves: The Details
A heat wave is generally defined as a period of several days to weeks of abnormally hot weather.

In the past 3-4 decades, there has been an increasing trend in high-humidity heat waves, which are characterized by the persistence of extremely high night-time temperature.1 The combination of high humidity and high night-time temperature can make for a deadly pairing, offering no relief and posing a particular threat for the elderly. Extreme heat events are responsible for more deaths annually than hurricanes, lightning, tornadoes, floods, and earthquakes combined.2

At the same time, low-humidity heat waves associated with droughts and fueled in part by climate change contribute to the dry conditions that are driving wild fires.3 4

Numerous studies have documented that human-induced climate change has increased the frequency and severity of heat waves across the globe.5 6 7 8 9

For instance, a thorough statistical analysis of the Russian heat wave suggests that there was an approximate 80% probability that the 2010 July Russian heat record would not have occurred without climate warming, or alternatively the probability increased by a factor of five.10 11

Globally, extremely warm nights that used to come once in 20 years now occur every 10 years.12 And extremely hot summers, those more than three standard deviations above the historic average, are now observed in about 10% of the global land area, compared to 0.1-0.2% for the period 1951-1980.13

http://climatecommunication.org/new/articles/heat-waves-and-climate-change/heat-waves-the-details/

The lack of dew and much warmer nights can wreak havoc on some biomes even if the daytime temps are not a record.
 
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Yuck, yeah the autumn foliage here is dependent on the rain fall, it varies. But wow -7C would be very low for fall here.

Those black frosts happen(ed) during July and August. I meant all the vocabulary about frosts because I can't find information in NOAA and other sites about the frost-free periods and their change. R-j has shown some interest in agriculture (:rolleyes:) and for me it was always important to know about frosts in your area. The typical rural setting in Buenos Aires Province gets 0 to 1 days of snow, but 5 to 40 frosts, depending on the year and latitude. During my childhood the frost free average period was about 230 days at Buenos Aires' surroundings. Now I suppose it is some 280-290 days.

About the autumn colours, it is my understanding that oranges and reds develop when cold weather appears in a sudden and clear skies predominate, so sugars are retained in the leaves and sun beams can affect them. Here, the fall season has become the mild and rainy part of the Summer and cold weather comes in May or June.

But, we have unbearably high dew points during Summer too. Last December we got a record (I think) of a bit below 28°C, and values above 23°C, once part of those 5 or 10 days of Summer you wouldn't forget, have become increasingly common with whole weeks holding values within 23 to 26°C.
 
It's moisture and stress related as well in Ontario maples. Combination of factors and still be worked on.
I suspect NOAA cannot track frost free as it's very terrain and locale dependent...any bodies of water, slopes etc affect frost.
 
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Interesting article at the Economist.



I do believe in AGW in general, but I also think that the alarmists have exaggerated the effect. The downside is that if the actual recorded temperatures fall completely outside the projected range, deniers will use that to raise doubt about any AGW.
Also from the Economist article:

the puzzle does need explaining.

The mismatch might mean that—for some unexplained reason—there has been a temporary lag between more carbon dioxide and higher temperatures in 2000-10. Or it might be that the 1990s, when temperatures were rising fast, was the anomalous period. Or, as an increasing body of research is suggesting, it may be that the climate is responding to higher concentrations of carbon dioxide in ways that had not been properly understood before. This possibility, if true, could have profound significance both for climate science and for environmental and social policy.

The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), which embodies the mainstream of climate science, reckons the answer is about 3°C, plus or minus a degree or so. In its most recent assessment (in 2007), it wrote that “the equilibrium climate sensitivity…is likely to be in the range 2°C to 4.5°C with a best estimate of about 3°C and is very unlikely to be less than 1.5°C. Values higher than 4.5°C cannot be excluded.” The IPCC’s next assessment is due in September. A draft version was recently leaked. It gave the same range of likely outcomes and added an upper limit of sensitivity of 6°C to 7°C.

A rise of around 3°C could be extremely damaging. The IPCC’s earlier assessment said such a rise could mean that more areas would be affected by drought; that up to 30% of species could be at greater risk of extinction; that most corals would face significant biodiversity losses; and that there would be likely increases of intense tropical cyclones and much higher sea levels.

New Model Army

Other recent studies, though, paint a different picture. An unpublished report by the Research Council of Norway, a government-funded body, which was compiled by a team led by Terje Berntsen of the University of Oslo, uses a different method from the IPCC’s. It concludes there is a 90% probability that doubling CO₂ emissions will increase temperatures by only 1.2-2.9°C, with the most likely figure being 1.9°C. The top of the study’s range is well below the IPCC’s upper estimates of likely sensitivity.

This study has not been peer-reviewed; it may be unreliable. But its projections are not unique. Work by Julia Hargreaves of the Research Institute for Global Change in Yokohama, which was published in 2012, suggests a 90% chance of the actual change being in the range of 0.5-4.0°C, with a mean of 2.3°C. This is based on the way the climate behaved about 20,000 years ago, at the peak of the last ice age, a period when carbon-dioxide concentrations leapt. Nic Lewis, an independent climate scientist, got an even lower range in a study accepted for publication: 1.0-3.0°C, with a mean of 1.6°C. His calculations reanalysed work cited by the IPCC and took account of more recent temperature data. In all these calculations, the chances of climate sensitivity above 4.5°C become vanishingly small.

If such estimates were right, they would require revisions to the science of climate change and, possibly, to public policies. If, as conventional wisdom has it, global temperatures could rise by 3°C or more in response to a doubling of emissions, then the correct response would be the one to which most of the world pays lip service: rein in the warming and the greenhouse gases causing it. This is called “mitigation”, in the jargon. Moreover, if there were an outside possibility of something catastrophic, such as a 6°C rise, that could justify drastic interventions. This would be similar to taking out disaster insurance. It may seem an unnecessary expense when you are forking out for the premiums, but when you need it, you really need it. Many economists, including William Nordhaus of Yale University, have made this case.

If, however, temperatures are likely to rise by only 2°C in response to a doubling of carbon emissions (and if the likelihood of a 6°C increase is trivial), the calculation might change. Perhaps the world should seek to adjust to (rather than stop) the greenhouse-gas splurge.
 
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