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Moderated Global Warming Discussion

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Yes there are a number of approaches and all fuel generally requires power so that is really not an issue.
BIt being able to store and transport the power in a fuel manufactured from the effluent of power plants.....that's neat trick and ultimately in some form or another is the direction we will go - be it hydrogen or a carbon based fuel

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...esel-fuel-using-sun-water-carbon-dioxide.html
 
The world "rapidly" warmed during the Holocene Thermal Maximum too.
Hi Westwall: You seem to be refering to the "climate's changed before" climate myth.
What does past climate change tell us about global warming?
Natural climate change in the past proves that climate is sensitive to an energy imbalance. If the planet accumulates heat, global temperatures will go up. Currently, CO2 is imposing an energy imbalance due to the enhanced greenhouse effect. Past climate change actually provides evidence for our climate's sensitivity to CO2.

That the world "rapidly" warmed during the HTM means that it can "even more rapidly" warm today and that is what is measured to be happening.
 
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Westwall: Is North America part of northern Europe

Skeptical Science makes the constant claim that the MWP was localised to northern Europe when over 100 peer reviewed studies show that it was global and warmer.
So how does Skeptical Science actually address the 'Medieval Warm Period was warmer' climate myth?
How does the Medieval Warm Period compare to current global temperatures?
While the Medieval Warm Period saw unusually warm temperatures in some regions, globally the planet was cooler than current conditions.
...
The Medieval Warm Period saw warm conditions over a large part of the North Atlantic, Southern Greenland, the Eurasian Arctic, and parts of North America. In these regions, temperature appears to be warmer than the 1961–1990 baseline. In some areas, temperatures were even as warm as today. However, certain regions such as central Eurasia, northwestern North America, and the tropical Pacific are substantially cooler compared to the 1961 to 1990 average.
Wait a minute - where is the "MWP was localised to northern Europe" claim :jaw-dropp ?
Westwall: Is North America part of northern Europe :rolleyes: ?
 
Apologies, I see now that the paper is

Fildes, R. & Kourentzes, N. Validation and forecasting accuracy in models of climate change. International Journal of Forecasting. Volume 27, Issue 4, October–December 2011, Pages 968–995

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0169207011000604


That paper was first mentioned (but without citation) by Westwall. I can now confirm that Westwall misrepresented the paper. Since Westwall plagiarized his comments from one or more denier blogs, I can also confirm that the denier blogs have been misrepresenting that paper.

After a few years hanging around on these climate-related blogs, you know that the *AGW* deniers (being specific, just so the denialati out there can't opt for the sympathy vote by accusing us of conflating you with Holocaust deniers) never, ever read whatever is on the end of a science-based link that you send them to. I find this behaviour to be perplexing, if not understandable with regards to human nature. I mean, honestly, who really wants to read stuff that runs contra to your carefully constructed world-view, built up over oh so many years?


In the case of this paper, we see that AGW deniers haven't even read the papers they misrepresent in support of their own denial. Indeed, neither Westwall nor the denier site(s) he plagiarized could give anything approaching a proper citation of the paper.

We have seen many examples of partisans misrepresenting a research paper. If this example is more interesting than others, it may be because several partisans of wildly divergent views have commented upon it in this thread without having read it.

I will use this brown color to comment upon the comments that have been made about this paper within this thread and in various blogs. When commenting upon the paper itself, I will use black on white.



Ad hominem arguments.

The first author, Robert Fildes, is a Distinguished Professor of Management Science at Lancaster University. He was a co-founder of both the Journal of Forecasting and the International Journal of Forecasting. He has co-authored papers with another co-founder, J S Armstrong, who is a prominent denier of climate change.

For some here, those associations already provide an excuse to reject the paper, and perhaps even to reject all papers that have ever been published in those journals.

The second author, Nikolaos Kourentzes, is a post-doc in Management Science at Lancaster University, where he presumably works closely with Fildes. He does research on neural network prediction of time series, which turns out to be highly relevant to the paper.

Using these biographies to argue against the paper or its conclusions is an example of ad hominem argument.



Summary of paper.

The paper begins with two long sections that explain the differences between forecasting and climate models. The authors state their purpose as "to review the various criteria used to appraise the validity of climate models, and in particular the role of forecasting accuracy..." of decadal forecasts.

The bulk of the paper compares the decadal climate prediction system (DePreSys), which is based on a physical climate model, to several purely statistical algorithms that attempt to predict future climate over periods of a few years by mere extrapolation of past trends in various ways.


Physical models are not extrapolated from existing data using statistical techniques the way statistical models are. What interesting statistical criticisms do you expect to find when statistics haven't been employed?
As explained at its web site, DePreSys attempts to harness a physical model (HadCM3) to make decadal climate predictions. If the physical model makes better decadal predictions that most of the purely statistical predictors, then that would serve as partial validation of the physical model.



Again, the underlying physics system behaves as a random walk for these time scales so they are of no value in validating model results. Other than possibly ENSO or similar phenomenon you would not expect to make usable predictions on these time scales nor does anyone attempt to. Showing you can't is therefor a trivial result that little to the discussion.
On the other hand, showing that you can is a non-trivial result that I personally find interesting.


The main results of the paper are:
  • For forecasting 1-4 years ahead, predictions based upon physical models (DePreSys) outperform all of the purely statistical algorithms. In particular, those predictions outperform random walks by quite a bit, which directly contradicts statements made by both Westwall and lomiller within this thread.
  • For forecasting 10 years ahead, predictions based upon physical models (DePreSys) outperform a majority of the purely statistical algorithms. (When comparing DePreSys to a large number of purely statistical algorithms, one would expect a few of the statistical algorithms to do better just by chance.) In particular, predictions based upon physical models outperform the random walk model by a large margin. Once again, this result directly contradicts statements made by both Westwall and lomiller.
  • The best of the purely statistical predictors predicts the same annual increase in average temperature as the IPCC AR4 report's scenario A2 (which essentially assumes continuation of current policies). Once again, this runs directly counter to the impression Westwall and the denier blogs have been trying to create.

For predicting 1-4 or 10 years ahead, the best of the purely statistical predictors was a neural network that was black-box trained on two inputs: (1) annual emissions of carbon dioxide and (2) "lagged values of the temperature anomaly". That model contained 33 numerical parameters.

(For those who don't know about artificial neural networks: They use brute-force machine learning to provide a theory-free match to their training inputs. They routinely extrapolate features that aren't even seen by their programmers. With 33 numerical parameters, it should not be surprising that the neural network's ten-year predictions were more accurate than DePreSys---especially when neural networks are the second author's research specialty.)


Localised forecasts.

So where did Westwall's misrepresentation come from? Was Westwall just lying about the paper?

No. He was plagiarizing the denier sites' misrepresentations. The numbers cited by Westwall and the denier sites all come from section 3.3 of the paper.


Section 3.3 of the paper considers the problem of forecasting local temperatures. For example:
The GCM models performed substantially worse than the random walk....This implies that the current GCM models are ill-suited to localised decadal predictions, even though they are used as inputs for policy making.
Well, duh. The legitimate point that the authors are making here is that global climate models (GCMs) should not be misused to make localised predictions.

Not only does that problem fall well outside the intended purpose of global climate models (GCMs), it seems to me that section 3.3 was so badly written that it nearly invited misinterpretation by climate deniers.

The peer reviewers fell down on the job here. To give an indisputable example: Tables 6 and 7 show errors calculated over differing time periods. For an explanation of that important point, the authors refer the reader to footnote 23, but footnote 23 has nothing to do with that. I suspect the authors meant to refer readers to footnote 25, which is at least marginally relevant, but footnote 25 doesn't provide the promised explanation either.

Those who raised ad hominem arguments against this paper can point to section 3.3 as justification. I wouldn't even try to argue against anyone who thinks the authors wrote section 3.3 because they were trying to give deniers some way to claim that the paper contains a substantive criticism of global climate models.


Conclusions.

Following their scientifically shaky excursion in section 3.3, the authors take quite a random walk before straying back onto solid ground. They emphasize the shortcomings of DePreSys, without emphasizing the fact that it outperformed the majority of their purely statistical models, and without emphasizing the extreme adjustability of their neural networks. For example:
In carrying out the analysis reported here, we have achieved improvements in forecasting accuracy of some 18% for up to 10-year-ahead forecasts.
That sentence would be more accurate if the highlighted "for up to" were replaced by "but only for". The authors should also have acknowledged that they were also able to achieve reductions in accuracy approaching a factor of two. The 18% improvement they mentioned was a picked cherry.

However, there is no support in the evidence we present for those who reject the whole notion of global warming: the forecasts still remain inexorably upward, with forecasts which are comparable to those produced by the models used by the IPCC.
That may be the most important sentence of their conclusions, but it is not a sentence Westwall or the denier sites want to quote.

I'm not even sure the authors want it to be quoted.
That sentence is buried deep within the middle of a long paragraph.

It's hard not to notice that the two pages of discussion and conclusions cite prominent skeptics of climate change more often than would be expected by chance. That pattern was seen within the two introductory sections as well.

In summary, I cannot counter expectations that were raised/lowered by the ad hominem arguments. Even so, it's abundantly clear that Westwall and the denier sites have been misrepresenting this paper.
 
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Seriously?

In many places, electricity production requires a large storage system because supply and demand do not match. Batteries are not economic for the purpose. Many techniques are being researched including better batteries, potential and kinetic energy storage, heat difference systems and chemical systems such as this.

At the moment, the efficiency of this appears very low but if it can be improved it will have an advantage of very high density of energy, ideal for transport.

Agreed, the point I was trying to make is that is not a carbon neutral process and certainly not a way of sequestering CO2, unless it's intended to pump the fuels produced back into the ground:boggled:
Also wouldn't the efficiency of this process actually be lowered by only using it when you have spare electical supply?


Could it make "clean coal" more feasible if you could use the CO2 to value add to the process, get fuel & sell it on for a profit rather than just having the cost of sequestering what would otherwise be a waste product?
No, let's say the process coal to electricty to liquid fuel is 10% efficient, then for every kilo of CO2 produced by burning coal, 100 gms would be converted to liquid fuel, so you still would have the cost of sequestering the other 900 gms. And of course 100 gms would still end up in the atmosphere (unless these emissions were somehow collected). Actually come to think of it my figures are almost certainly wrong due to different energy densities in different hydrocarbons, don't know if that invalidates my arguement maybe a chemist or chemical engineer might be able to tell me.

Yes there are a number of approaches and all fuel generally requires power so that is really not an issue.
BIt being able to store and transport the power in a fuel manufactured from the effluent of power plants.....that's neat trick and ultimately in some form or another is the direction we will go - be it hydrogen or a carbon based fuel

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...esel-fuel-using-sun-water-carbon-dioxide.html

You're right it's whether that power is produced in a carbon neutral way that is the issue. If we just take the CO2 from power plants and convert it to fuel for transport that CO2 is still going to end up in the atmosphere absorbing IR and warming the planet.
Using sunlight directly rather than electricity to produce diesel seems to me to have a much greater potential as a carbon neutral fuel, and if they can really do it for $30 a barrel as they claim in that article then getting off FFs should be easy.
 
I'm not sure if those different fuel synthesis are better than biofuels. And I'm not sure about biofuels themselves being a good idea.

yeah just looked at joule's web site, and it seems their process is dependent on industrial waste co2 as well
 
Agreed, the point I was trying to make is that is not a carbon neutral process and certainly not a way of sequestering CO2, unless it's intended to pump the fuels produced back into the ground:boggled:
Also wouldn't the efficiency of this process actually be lowered by only using it when you have spare electical supply?...

Isn't it carbon neutral if the complete cycle of synthesis and use not producing extra carbon dioxide?

Yes, in general, continuous processes are more efficient than batch or interrupted ones.
But
1) A mixture of storage systems will cope with more situations.
2) The calculation of a break point efficiency will be dependent on the circumstances of electricity generation.
3) The advantage of fuel synthesis is the portability of high density of energy.

I'm not sure if those different fuel synthesis are better than biofuels. And I'm not sure about biofuels themselves being a good idea.

One of the major disadvantages of biofuel production is the food production displacement. Wind and tidal electricity production into synthetic diesel would avoid that.

In general, no single method of storage will be suitable unless battery performance increases several fold. In the meantime, it will be best to pursue several avenues.
 
The main results of the paper are:
  • For forecasting 1-4 years ahead, predictions based upon physical models (DePreSys) outperform all of the purely statistical algorithms. In particular, those predictions outperform random walks by quite a bit, which directly contradicts statements made by both Westwall and lomiller within this thread.
  • For forecasting 10 years ahead, predictions based upon physical models (DePreSys) outperform a majority of the purely statistical algorithms. (When comparing DePreSys to a large number of purely statistical algorithms, one would expect a few of the statistical algorithms to do better just by chance.) In particular, predictions based upon physical models outperform the random walk model by a large margin. Once again, this result directly contradicts statements made by both Westwall and lomiller.
  • The best of the purely statistical predictors predicts the same annual increase in average temperature as the IPCC AR4 report's scenario A2 (which essentially assumes continuation of current policies). Once again, this runs directly counter to the impression Westwall and the denier blogs have been trying to create.


You seem to be missing my point. What we have here are people with little or no physical modeling experience playing with bleeding edge climate model research and publishing it in an off discipline journal that doesn’t have the reviewers or editors to properly asses what they have done with the model.
I’m not saying they are right or wrong, but that we can’t put a great deal of stock in it either way due to the way it was published.
 
Isn't it carbon neutral if the complete cycle of synthesis and use not producing extra carbon dioxide?

If by complete cycle you include both the energy and CO2 production processes then yes, but if it's using a FF source for either then I can't see how it could be.
 
If by complete cycle you include both the energy and CO2 production processes then yes, but if it's using a FF source for either then I can't see how it could be.

The aim is obviously to use solar power, there wouldn't be much point to taking an existing fossil fuel process and making it more inefficient.

The process concentrates atmospheric CO2. A drawback could be that this part of the process could become less efficient if the CO2 concentration falls. That doesn't seem likely in any scenario.
 
Tonight on PBS (Tuesday, October 23, 2012, 10 P.M. ET)

FRONTLINE: Climate of Doubt

Climate of Doubt describes the individuals and groups behind an organized effort to attack science by undermining scientists, and to unseat politicians who say they believe there is current climate change caused by human activity. Andrew Dessler, a climate scientist at Texas A&M, says, “I fully expect that after this program airs I’ll get another FOIA request for all of my emails with you. And you know, I’ll just deal with that. As a climate scientist, I think a lot about the future. It goes with the job. And I want to make sure that in 50 years or 100 years or 200 years, nobody could ever say we didn’t warn them.”

FRONTLINE also investigates the funding that powers the skeptic movement in the name of free market, anti-regulation, small government causes. Hockenberry finds that funding has shifted away from fossil fuel companies to more ideological, and less public, sources. According to Robert Brulle, a sociologist studying the funding patterns of these groups, “The major funders of the climate counter-movement are ideologically driven foundations that are very much concerned about conservative values and world views."
 
One of the major disadvantages of biofuel production is the food production displacement. Wind and tidal electricity production into synthetic diesel would avoid that.

In general, no single method of storage will be suitable unless battery performance increases several fold. In the meantime, it will be best to pursue several avenues.

I think we are all missing the point here. There's no need to completely ban fossil fuels nor replace them by synthetic versions to have a deep climate crisis averted. I was doing a quick update of my "perception" of the data.

World's coal production 7678MT (2011, 6.6% above 2010's).
Oil production: 5081 Mm3 (2011, some 4530 MT)
Natural gas production: 3177 Gm3 (2009, some 2070 MT)

Now, quickly applying Fermi:

how much CO2 is generated:

coal ---> C + ... > CO2 --> 44/12 --> 3.6 T/T
oil ---> C10H22 + ... > 10 CO2 + ... ---> 440/142 ---> 3.1 T/T
natural gas ---> CH4 + ... > CO2 + ... ---> 44/16 ---> 2.8 T/T

how much energy is got:

coal: 25 GJ/T
oil: 40 GJ/T
natural gas: 54 GJ/T

So this is an "á la Fermi" estimation of CO2 generation and energy provision:

coal: 27600 GT of CO2 to produce 192 EJ
oil: 14000 GT to produce 181 WJ
natural gas: 5800 GT to produce 112 EJ

That is 47400GT of CO2 (and here is a problem because this exceeds the error margin of a Fermi's and I point to the statistics of the World Coal Association as the probable main source) to produce 485 EJ.

Let aside for a moment the inconsistency of the values when compared with the 35-36000 GT estimated emissions for 2011 which include other sources as cement and loss of forests, and suppose the data is for a year to come soon, we can check that by suppressing coal we would curb 58% of emissions losing just 39.5% of energy, or better said, we have to replace it with alternative sources. Curbing 58% World's emission is like going back to 1970.

About existing methods to synthesize fuel, there's a pretty efficient one to convert coal into methane using electricity surpluses -from a renewable source, of course-. This takes about 1 ton of low quality coal and its potential 20-30 GJ and converts it in about 1.2 tons of methane (the rest is about the cost of the process itself) producing 65 GJ, with the same CO2 production. This process departs from water electrolysis, so some 6-12 hours of hydrogen storage without transport can be installed to manage energy surpluses coming from wind by night, sun in peak hours or nuclear so a flow of methane is provided as natural gas is demanded.

There are many of these processes of conversion, synthesis or storage that combined can provide reasonable alternatives. And after all, there's no an extremely serious reason to replace aviation gasoline, vessel fuel and other uses that today depend on fossil fuels.

You are welcome to provide a better version of my figures and encouraged to provide figures to every analysis.
 
At Cato Institute:
- Gentlemen, how do we best mitigate the effects of climate change?
- I know, I know! Let's abandon the rest of our integrity and make a fake addendum to a real report!
 
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The process concentrates atmospheric CO2. A drawback could be that this part of the process could become less efficient if the CO2 concentration falls. That doesn't seem likely in any scenario.

It would much likely use liquified C02 from existing sources.
This is also a way to store off peak power from nuclear etc.

•••

Coal is clearly the Ace of Spades in this terror deck and it is actually quite straight forward to convert coal stations to natural gas of which there is an abundance these days and much less emission.
 
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If you are designing a CO2 to fuel process, you would be insane not to use industrial byproduct CO2. It is what they refer to as "low hanging fruit." It will always exist in some form, too, from making concrete or making steel. Later when all the easy sources of industrial CO2 are tapped, we can work on taking it from ambient air.
 
Though theres very little in the way of figures, it probably works out better than the present sequestration technologies.
 
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