Moderated Global Warming Discussion

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Well, enough of "cherry picking" in the cherry-only orchard. It's obvious we are at the end of an extremely long lasting Niña. What is it going to happen? A new Niña is possible but not probable. I can't imagine what would happen if a strong and long lasting Niño appears above the current state of the climate.

Another La Nina is so unlikely as to raise questions in itself, I think. The 2010 El Nino was cut short and yet 2010 was as warm as 1998; any year-long El Nino is going to be a new leader, uncontended.

(I don't put much emphasis on surface temperatures myself, and I expect you don't either, but that is what the deniers like to focus on and so will have to deal with somehow. To my mind what's important are the physical impacts, such as drought, flood and wildfire in various sequences and combinations. My apple and pear trees have been so messed-about by this year's weather I doubt I'll get a crop at all :mad:. This is getting presonal.)
 
He claims that the Robert W. Wood Greenhosue experiment from 1909 totaly debunks the greenhouse effect.
i didn't find any good rebutals as to why his experiment does not apply to the atmospheric greenhouse effect.

Talking of totally debunking the greenhouse effect ... has anyone know of any good rebuttals to this? ... Venus: No Greenhouse Effect "There is no greenhouse effect on Venus with 96.5% carbon dioxide, and none on the Earth with just a trace of carbon dioxide" HARRY DALE HUFFMAN Independent research physical scientist http://theendofthemystery.blogspot.co.uk/2010/11/venus-no-greenhouse-effect.html
 
Good thing there's no global warming!!!

Just reading this morning about the terrible situation in our northeastern area (including Maryland, Virginia and that whacky place between them) plus the info that more storms are on the way. And my first thought was "Damn!! It's a good thing there isn't any global warming - it could be so much worse than it is. "

My second thought (occuring just after my wife casually mentioned the republicker's demands to get through a couple of bills that made it appear they might be edging towards becoming something approaching real people) was "what if the republickers - the high up ones and the money guys for them-are actually aliens trying to turn earth into a planet fit for them to live and thrive on and using the fears and incompetence of their lesser components to drive the process".

If we suddenly disappea
 
i dont like this bad weather linking to AGW. in a few decades we can start linking an increased trend if there is one. I don't think that the current amount of evidence is enought o start linking tornadoes etc to AGW.
 
i dont like this bad weather linking to AGW. in a few decades we can start linking an increased trend if there is one. I don't think that the current amount of evidence is enought o start linking tornadoes etc to AGW.

It's my hope fuelair was being tongue in cheek. AGW is not linked to annual events but annual trends instead
 
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=north-carolina-sea-level-rises-desipte-senators

what? did the NC Senate really bann agencies from reporting Sea level rise increases? wtf? really????

From what I understand, the Senate entertained a bill which would require state-paid scientists doing sea-level change projections to restrict their data to 1900 forward, and to use linear projections.

What this boils down to is that all state-produced data would, by law, assert that future sea-level change will not vary from a linear trend derived from 20th century data.

So according the state, predictions of accelerating rates of sea-level change will not be allowed in any official findings.
 
Global Warming, what global warming?? Why, just this past winter I looked out my window and saw snow, thus proving once and for all that global warming is a hoax!! :p
 
I started to read the linked page but his opening paragraph made me realize it would be a complete waste of time.
The flip side of the entrenched incompetence in science today is that all it takes is scientific competence to make revolutionary discoveries, or fundamental corrections to current dogma. Being a competent physicist rather than an incompetent climate scientist (which 97% of them demonstrably are), I was able recently to post an answer on yahoo.com to a question about the greenhouse effect on Venus, an update to which I give here:

When he decides to publish his idea in a science journal rather than Yahoo! Answers then it may be worth spending time to review it. I did look a little bit to see if he's published anything but all I found was his self published works on Lulu including his 5 page pamphlet "A Simple Disproof of Plate Tectonics". He's asking $1.00 per page to read it so it must be packed with incredibly valuable information. :rolleyes:
http://www.lulu.com/shop/harry-dale...of-plate-tectonics/ebook/product-3512694.html
 
Another La Nina is so unlikely as to raise questions in itself, I think. The 2010 El Nino was cut short and yet 2010 was as warm as 1998; any year-long El Nino is going to be a new leader, uncontended.

Technically speaking, was it really a Niño those months back in 2010?

...
My apple and pear trees have been so messed-about by this year's weather I doubt I'll get a crop at all :mad:. This is getting presonal.

I'd plant some oranges.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=north-carolina-sea-level-rises-desipte-senators

what? did the NC Senate really bann agencies from reporting Sea level rise increases? wtf? really????

It looks like the Bible Belt is striking back.

BTW, when I was a child, I read about the coasts of the Carolinas and Virginia being sinking by geological reasons.

Talking of totally debunking the greenhouse effect ... has anyone know of any good rebuttals to this? ... Venus: No Greenhouse Effect "There is no greenhouse effect on Venus with 96.5% carbon dioxide, and none on the Earth with just a trace of carbon dioxide" HARRY DALE HUFFMAN Independent research physical scientist http://theendofthemystery.blogspot.co.uk/2010/11/venus-no-greenhouse-effect.html

I'm still laughing from reading that "scientific" article, with its "sleigh of figures", like the sleigh of hands, but a prestidigitational use of figures to hide that the subject under analysis is changing constantly.

That analysis looked like "a rat is more intelligent than Joe Denialitto" because they tested the intelligence of a 3 pound rat and later they took the lowest 3 pounds of Joe Denialitto -to be at a rat level- and the result was that Joe's halluces were pretty dumb (all-thumbs?) when compared with the rat's brain hemispheres.

The whole thing made me remember one mini-chapter of John Allen Paulos' Beyond Numeracy, dealing with coincidences and a person in a flight being amazed by knowing that the passenger next seat has the same dentist that his own cousin. The same way he explained how it does not matter how low is the probability of some specific coincidence to happen when there's a high probability of some coincidence to happen, the author of that intellectual travesty exploited some contrast he managed to find in order to state and denounce that he is "a competent physicist rather than an incompetent climate scientist (which 97% of them demonstrably are)"(SIC).

In this case, it looks like the chap started to cross-reference and correlate the earth's atmosphere with sun magnetic indexes, Andromeda -the galaxy or the tv series-, runes, decadal oscillation in Oprah's and Rosseane weights, and a long etcetera, and finally found that a thoroughly comparison of the Earth's atmosphere with the outer insignificantly thin crust of Venus' would "debunk" the greenhouse effect. And it gives amazing coincidences, like some chap and his nephew dreaming with duckies last night so they are buying some coupon with a 22 ending.

The problem with those thistle-arguments is that the more you discuss and debunk it, the more you promote it among the innumerate and uneducated masses. No matter the author find a coincidence and didn't bother in comparing the composition of the outermost layer of Venus' atmosphere or the simplest fact that that layer can be cool because heat is trapped by the 99% percent of the atmosphere which is bellow and contains almost all the CO2 available.

I'm afraid that poor and anti-scientific article might stir some 40 or 50 post of sterile discussions here with the usual patrons.
 
Talking of totally debunking the greenhouse effect ... has anyone know of any good rebuttals to this? ... Venus: No Greenhouse Effect "There is no greenhouse effect on Venus with 96.5% carbon dioxide, and none on the Earth with just a trace of carbon dioxide" HARRY DALE HUFFMAN Independent research physical scientist http://theendofthemystery.blogspot.co.uk/2010/11/venus-no-greenhouse-effect.html

You "physicist" is picking a number that gives him the answer he want s but doesn't have any particular physical meaning. The greenhouse effect controls surface temperature not the temperature profile of an atmosphere. The correct counter to that is that there is an observable measurable greenhouse effect on both planets.

Without a greenhouse effect a planets surface temperature would approximate it's black-body temperature for the radiation it receives from the Sun. After albedo is accounted for both the Earth and Venus receive the same density of energy from the Sun. Without a greenhouse effect that would not sufficient to get either planet above 0 deg C. In fact the earth without a greenhouse effect would be ~33 deg C colder while Venus would be ~570 deg C cooler.
 
Climate change and droughts are caused by Al Gore, according to a lady in the pharmacy I was talking to a few days ago. Because he invented Global Warming, dontchaknow?
 
Global warming is bad. The solid week of record high temperatures is unrelated but also bad.

I hate heat...
 
Talking of totally debunking the greenhouse effect ... has anyone know of any good rebuttals to this? ... Venus: No Greenhouse Effect "There is no greenhouse effect on Venus with 96.5% carbon dioxide, and none on the Earth with just a trace of carbon dioxide" HARRY DALE HUFFMAN Independent research physical scientist http://theendofthemystery.blogspot.co.uk/2010/11/venus-no-greenhouse-effect.html

Ah, blog-"science", the last redoubt of the global warming deniers.

Seriously, if this guy has "debunked" the greenhouse effect, he'd be up for a Nobel price, as that would completely change physics as we know it. Let me guess: the reason he has to publish his "stunning" "results" on a blog is because the climate scientists are conspiring against him?
 
It's my hope fuelair was being tongue in cheek. AGW is not linked to annual events but annual trends instead

As long as fuelair is being tongue in cheek. Here are two of my favorite bits of news on the topic. Neither are evidence of anything other than life has a strong liking for irony.

In March 2007, Bancroft and Arnesen were taking part in a trek across the Arctic Ocean to draw attention to the problem of global warming. However, according to The Washington Post, the expedition was called off "after Arnesen suffered frostbite in three of her toes, and extreme cold temperatures drained the batteries in some of their electronic equipment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_Bancroft

The last sentence made me laugh because it just sounds funny. I agree that weather is not climate.

Tempo Interaktif reports that Angkasa Pura - the management of Bali's Ngurah Rai International Airport are concerned that the large number of additional private charter flights expected in Bali during the UN Conference on Climate Change (UNFCCC) December 3-15, 2007, will exceed the carrying capacity of apron areas. To meet the added demand for aircraft storage officials are allocating "parking space" at other airports in Indonesia.
Read more: http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-s...ets-going-un-climate-conference#ixzz1zJrP9df7

Oh come on, it's funny!
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-s...king-private-jets-going-un-climate-conference
 
Talking of totally debunking the greenhouse effect ... has anyone know of any good rebuttals to this? ... Venus: No Greenhouse Effect "There is no greenhouse effect on Venus with 96.5% carbon dioxide, and none on the Earth with just a trace of carbon dioxide" HARRY DALE HUFFMAN Independent research physical scientist http://theendofthemystery.blogspot.co.uk/2010/11/venus-no-greenhouse-effect.html

If one wants to study the Tyndall Effect (vulgarly known as the Greenhouse Effect) the place to do it is in the laboratory with a spectroscope, not by reference to Venus. The sensible place to do it, anyway.

No doubt this "independent research physical scientist" (one can understand the trouble he'd have getting employed, let alone tenure) thinks he's terribly clever but in fact he's a grandiose fool. Venus has a high albedo above the 1000mb level due to sulphurous clouds; this brightness has been commented on pretty much since commentary was invented in the Fertile Crescent. This poor sap engages in several circular arguments at once to get around this, which is quite a performance but ultimately futile.

By his gyrations he manages to convince himself that the Earth's atmosphere gets most of its solar energy by direct absorption of infrared and holds this to disprove the Tyndall Effect. Absorption of infrared by the atmosphere is the Tyndall Effect.

So this

"Independent research physical scientist, author ("The End of the Mystery"), and discoverer of the astounding world design behind all the ancient mysteries"

is definitely self-basting, and most likely self-publishing.

Out of interest, where did you hear about him? Was it Judith Curry's site? She does go for this kind of thing.
 
Talking of totally debunking the greenhouse effect ... has anyone know of any good rebuttals to this? ... Venus: No Greenhouse Effect "There is no greenhouse effect on Venus with 96.5% carbon dioxide, and none on the Earth with just a trace of carbon dioxide" HARRY DALE HUFFMAN Independent research physical scientist http://theendofthemystery.blogspot.co.uk/2010/11/venus-no-greenhouse-effect.html

He uses 0 science in his assessment, it is all rationalization based on faulty and mistaken initial suppositions and flawed equivalancies.
 
Talking of totally debunking the greenhouse effect ... has anyone know of any good rebuttals to this? ... Venus: No Greenhouse Effect "There is no greenhouse effect on Venus with 96.5% carbon dioxide, and none on the Earth with just a trace of carbon dioxide" HARRY DALE HUFFMAN Independent research physical scientist http://theendofthemystery.blogspot.co.uk/2010/11/venus-no-greenhouse-effect.html

well, all the greenhouse effect on Venus is below the level of 1000 millibars anyway.

So this just reduces to the PV=nRT argument for the temperature being due to the pressure, and if you believe that argument, I can't help you.

And HDF conviently forgets to mention that although Venus is closer to the Sun and receives more solar radiation, it also has a much higher albedo due to high sulfuric acid clouds (0.15% of atmosphere) so the two effects cancel and both planets get remarkably simular amounts of solar radiation. So his calculation for the predicted temperature at the 1 atm level for Venus is wrong.

But he does a pretty convincing job saying the greenhouse effect on Venus above the 1 atm level is simular to the total greenhouse effect on earth.
 
People don't understand what is going on. A 1 degree average increase, say, means a 70 degree day is now 71. An 80 degree day is now 81.

You might have a small amount of increased storms, but not some kind of holy hellmouth releasing all over the Earth.
 
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