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Moderated Global Warming Discussion

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Virginia high court rejects case against Mann

http://blogs.nature.com/news/2012/03/virginia-high-court-rejects-case-against-mann.html

The Virgina Supreme Court on Friday tossed out an investigation by the state’s conservative attorney general, Ken Cuccinelli (pictured at right), into Michael Mann, the former University of Virginia climatologist whose work on the now-famous hockey-stick graph (originally published in Nature) has become a lightning rod for climate skeptics as well as the subject of a new book.

Cuccinelli’s pursuit of Mann, now at Pennsylvania State University in University Park, dates back nearly two years to the controversy surrounding climate e-mails that were illegally leaked from the University of East Anglia in the United Kingdom. Cuccinelli served the University of Virginia (UVA) with the equivalent of subpoenas, demanding documentation as well as access to Mann’s e-mail records. Although subsequent investigations have cleared the scientist of alleged wrong-doing, Cuccinelli argued that Mann might have manipulated data and thus defrauded the government in applying for scientific grants.

In a dense and conflicted 26-page ruling (pdf) covering a century and a half of case law — including references to kings as well as modern “functional incongruities” that divided the judges themselves — Virginia’s high court ruled that the university is not a “person” and thus is not subject to Cuccinelli’s demands under the state’s Fraud Against Taxpayers Act. The Union of Concerned Scientists praised the decision as well as UVA for standing up to the attorney general on behalf of Mann and the academic community. For his part, Cuccinelli lamented the decision and then announced that he would move to drop a second related case that is pending in the lower courts.

<SNIP>

bolding mine
 
...How exactly does this pertain to Peter Gleick's unethical and, indeed, criminal actions?
...Forget McArdle. Answer that if you will.

You were the one who started quoting McArdle as though she were some great shining example of independent and unbiased authority. As for Gleick, I had little knowledge of, or concern for, him prior to his mention in the last few posts, and see no real reason to change my opinions and considerations of him now.

If he actually followed the denialist tactic of forging documents and blatantly lying about people, then he is a cad and has earned the disrepute mantle associated with him. But what does this have to do with the scientific evidences, facts, and realities of AGW?

To his credit, Gleik resigned from his ethics chair in the AGU and has publically addressed his ethical lapses. I'm not sure what you are speaking of with regards to "criminal activities," but it sounds like more "breathless hyperbole."
If Gleik is guilty of any criminal activity I hope he is thoroughly investigated and successfully prosecuted.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=the-peter-gleick-incident

http://www.npr.org/2012/02/22/147263862/climate-scientist-admits-to-lying-leaking-documents
 
Ok, you've got your ad hom chops down. You don't like McArdle's politics. (Not that she was my only "authority" btw.) How exactly does this pertain to Peter Gleick's unethical and, indeed, criminal actions?

We have no idea how Megan McArdle pertain to Gleick's unethical and allegedly criminal (jury's not in yet, innocent until proven guilty and all that jazz) actions. You brought her up, and she was shown to be a climate denier, thus nobody we should listen to when it comes to her opinion about Gleick or Deniergate.

Much of what appears in the phony “strategy memo” could have been composed only by someone with prior access to Heartland's board materials that Gleick says he subsequently sought out. Gleick is the only person, so far, who is known to have had access to the Heartland internal board documents.

You are right, as long as you assume the strategy memo is fake. If you suppose it isn't fake, it is clear that Heartland board members had access to board material and could have written the memo.

As you've apparently - without any real evidence what so ever - made up your mind that the memo is fake just because HI says so, you'll claim Gleick wrote it. For those of us who prefer to withold judgment until evidence actually becomes available - as opposed to just taking someone's word for it - it is equally likely that a HI board member really wrote the memo.

Also suspicious is that Gleick has not been forthcoming about the details of the phony memo. Was there a postmark? Did he keep the envelope and the original document that he scanned? Why does he think he was singled out to receive this information, rather than a reporter?
 
Actually i was thinking about just the think tanks and astroturf groups: George C. Marshall institute, Cato institute, The Science & Environmental Policy Project (SEPP), American Enterprise Institute, Hudson Institute, Heritage Foundation and the like... Fox news etc. working as their echo chamber is just a bonus.

Here's one list of them from exxonsecrets.org:
http://www.exxonsecrets.org/html/listorganizations.php

That's quite a list. It prompted me to look into the history of thinktanks, which led me to this :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/2011/09/the_curse_of_tina.html

The take-away point for me is encapsulated in :

"Think Tanks surround politics today and are the very things that are supposed to generate new ideas. But if you go back and look at how they rose up - at who invented them and why - you discover they are not quite what they seem. That in reality they may have nothing to do with genuinely developing new ideas, but have become a branch of the PR industry whose aim is to do the very opposite - to endlessly prop up and reinforce today's accepted political wisdom."

They exist to protect the status quo and vested interests. In the US this means the interests of old money from old means, families such as the Kochs and Scaiffes. This is why they not only deny AGW but also Peak Oil, and automatically attack alternatives to fossil-fuels (one of the principal old means to money) and the Chevy Volt, with no thought to the impact that will have on future industrial competitiveness. If the billionaires ever gain unfettered power (through the Republican Party, which they now own), which is quite feasible, there'll likely be an all-out assault on wind- and solar-power, even to the extent of disabling capacity which has already been installed.

It's quite something to watch, from the outside, the rapid decline of US democracy and industry. In a general sense it's nothing new; when dominant powers lose their primacy they often accelerate their own decline by clinging to the past and denying the present. I grew up during the British struggle to come to terms with loss of Empire (not everybody here has done that yet, look up UKIP for a giggle) and it's not easy.

Murdoch is a little different from the usual stock of libertarian billionaires in that he's a straight-out megalomaniac. The usual stock just think themselves to be entitled.
 
Ok, you've got your ad hom chops down. You don't like McArdle's politics. (Not that she was my only "authority" btw.)

The point is not about "liking" her politics or not - it is that her being strongly biased in the same, very specific way as Heartland is makes her a less-than-perfect source for decision making. The same would apply equally, for example, if the stolen papers were from Discovery Institute and McArdle was a known creationist.

How exactly does this pertain to Peter Gleick's unethical and, indeed, criminal actions?

Well, if she was in the line to be a member of the jury, her bias would probably get her thrown out.

As far as Gleick's actions go, what he did was unethical, yes, but also rather understandable, if his story is true. After getting the memo in the snail mail, he likely desperately wanted to know whether it was for real or not, and went a step too far in his efforts to find the evidence.

It will be interesting to see whether Heartland will actually proceed with the legal action on Gleick - i actually think they may not, because that could bring to light too many unpleasant things about HI itself.

Much of what appears in the phony “strategy memo” could have been composed only by someone with prior access to Heartland's board materials that Gleick says he subsequently sought out. Gleick is the only person, so far, who is known to have had access to the Heartland internal board documents.

No, he is not. Many people inside Heartland had access to those papers and the data in them. As far as the authenticity goes, there's no proof one way or the other - essentially, all we have now is Bast's word against Gleick's.

Also suspicious is that Gleick has not been forthcoming about the details of the phony memo. Was there a postmark? Did he keep the envelope and the original document that he scanned? Why does he think he was singled out to receive this information, rather than a reporter?

Well, he hasn't given any in-depth statement on the issue, just one blog post that outlined the events. If the calamity goes to court, we will surely get all the minutiae.

What i'm personally suspicious of is HI, and especially the wording in their statements. What they have said is roughly that A) the memo was not written by a Heartland staff member and B) that the memo was not written on the computers at the Heartland's offices.

Now, if what they say is true, that still leaves open many possibilities: for example, the memo could have been written by a board member, at home. Or by i.e. one or more of Heartland's "Climate experts", on a laptop while sipping a latté at Starbucks. Technically, Bast wouldn't have lied, but the memo would still be very closely connected to Heartland.
 
Not sure I agree with that judgment, although I'm not an expert in US law. I think they should have thrown out the case because it's frivolous and part of an ongoing witch hunt by deniers, such as Cuccinelli, against climate scientists.

USA doesn't generally throw out frivolous lawsuits for that reason. Instead they find some matter of law to throw it out. Generally you can sue for almost any stupid thing and have it go to trial.
 
Ok, you've got your ad hom chops down...

BTW, this ^^^, in itself, is an ad hom. As is this entire subthread theme of attacking Gleick. We can talk about climate science and public policy which is the purpose of this moderated thread or we can journey down rabbit holes, but when you take the conversation into a rabbit hole it is a little disingenuous to complain about being in a rabbit hole.
 
i see another claim of fakery that is not about fakery of any science.
and as the deniers can't find any fakery in the science, they have to jump on some allegedly faked memos.
yet again they are wasting time with such nonsese instead of doing science and show their claims about the climate to be true.
very telling.
 
Ok, you've got your ad hom chops down. You don't like McArdle's politics.
The only reason you seem to have for considering her a credible source is that YOU like her politics so pointing out the fact her politics preclude logical decision making is certainly relevant.

Much of what appears in the phony “strategy memo” could have been composed only by someone with prior access to Heartland's board materials that Gleick says he subsequently sought out. Gleick is the only person, so far, who is known to have had access to the Heartland internal board documents.

There certainly are other people who had access to the documents prior to the creation of the strategy document, that being the board members themselves.

The fact that you overlook this point tells us something of you thought processes. What you are doing is assuming the claims the document is fake without questioning them and only “investigating” who is responsible. IOW you are assuming the what you want to believe is true without the least little bit of sceptical analysis and then using that as “evidence” to prove your belief is justified.
 
i see another claim of fakery that is not about fakery of any science.
and as the deniers can't find any fakery in the science, they have to jump on some allegedly faked memos.
yet again they are wasting time with such nonsese instead of doing science and show their claims about the climate to be true.
very telling.

Indeed it is, and it has been thus for many years. FoI, "show me the code", "give me the data I don't want to pay for", stolen emails batches 1 and 2, Al Gore, Hansen, Mann, Jones, Gleick, the IPCC - anything but the science and the unfolding reality. When what little science deniers do manage to generate is calmly eviscerated they shout "ad hominem", and "censorship" when they can't get it steered around peer review.

"The Greatest Hoax" seems an appropriate description of the decades-long denier campaign. Somebody should write a book about it.
 
The only reason you seem to have for considering her a credible source is that YOU like her politics so pointing out the fact her politics preclude logical decision making is certainly relevant.
Hardly the ONLY reason. But she blogs for the Atlantic, not exactly a bulwark for right-wing "denierdom," whatever that means. Secondly, she has actually read the primary and secondary documents pertaining to this case, which you obviously haven't, otherwise you wouldn't go megafail thus:
There certainly are other people who had access to the documents prior to the creation of the strategy document, that being the board members themselves.

So, you think someone at HEARTLAND blastfaxed that obviously fake "strategy" memo to DeSmog, the Guardian and other outlets eager to rip their hearts out (which was the intent, and which they did)?? :jaw-dropp

You can't have it both ways. In your simplistic narrative Heartland is the Death Star, the Force of Evil; it can't be the Keystone Kops as well...

The fact that you overlook this point tells us something of you thought processes. What you are doing is assuming the claims the document is fake without questioning them and only “investigating” who is responsible. IOW you are assuming the what you want to believe is true without the least little bit of sceptical analysis and then using that as “evidence” to prove your belief is justified.

The "skeptical analysis" has been conducted and is fairly conclusive. You just don't want to hear it. Gleick himself could submit the hard copy of this "strategy document" to forensic analysis, but he has not and probably never will.

You backed the wrong horse. He is not only a disgrace, he is a criminal. Stop defending him.
 
The only reason you seem to have for considering her a credible source is that YOU like her politics so pointing out the fact her politics preclude logical decision making is certainly relevant.
Hardly the ONLY reason. But she blogs for the Atlantic, not exactly a bulwark for right-wing "denierdom," whatever that means. Secondly, she has actually read the primary and secondary documents pertaining to this case, which you obviously haven't, otherwise you wouldn't go megafail thus:


So, you think someone at HEARTLAND blastfaxed that obviously fake "strategy" memo to DeSmog, the Guardian and other outlets eager to rip their hearts out (which was the intent, and which they did)?? :jaw-dropp

You can't have it both ways. In your simplistic narrative Heartland is the Death Star, the Force of Evil; it can't be the Keystone Kops as well...



The "skeptical analysis" has been conducted and is fairly conclusive. You just don't want to hear it. Gleick himself could submit the hard copy of this "strategy document" to forensic analysis, but he has not and probably never will.

You backed the wrong horse. He is not only a disgrace, he is a criminal. Stop defending him.

do you also think that the hackers that stole the "climategate" emails or the guys that illegally leaked them as criminals?
 
"In your simplistic narrative Heartland is the Death Star, the Force of Evil;"

So True! From the Heartland Institute

http://books.heartland.org/?page_id=26

Roosters of the Apocalypse

"Rael Jean Isaac, a sociologist who has written extensively about social movements in the U.S., has studied the environmental movement and paid special attention to its global warming campaign. She finds the global warming movement, far from being based on scientific facts or consensus, is basically irrational, ideological, and profoundly anti-science.

These “roosters of the apocalypse” dominate governments, universities, and even scientific societies, even as the “owls” – scientists and others who doubt the threat of global warming is real – win the scientific debate and warn of the economic consequences of taking unnecessary action to reduce greenhouse gas emissions."


One would think that a sociologist would know better than to lie like this to society given the scientific consensus, the easily observable changes that are already happening, and the potential extinctions that are possible in the short term.

The next increase in temperature will be above the threshold that caused coral reefs to die off globally in 1998 and the Arctic Sea Ice should start to really open up in about five years. It may have been the sudden spike in temperature that killed the reefs in 1998 but if the corals reefs do end up dying off in a big way permanently due to the new normal high temperature and polar bears, walruses and seals start going extinct in huge numbers, Joe Average may finally get a grasp on the huge shift that is underway.

When Joe Average finds out that they have been blatantly lied to and that their children will have a horrible future and pay dearly for this type of dishonesty, people like Rael Jean Isaac may get hung in the town square. I don't think that average people will be able to ignore the huge changes that are underway much longer.

She must have missed the lynch mob lectures in school. Just another person that is not a climate scientist writing another anti-science book.

She said it best These “roosters of the apocalypse” dominate governments, universities, and even scientific societies," - That would be "all" scientific societies Mrs. Issac!
 
The only reason you seem to have for considering her a credible source is that YOU like her politics so pointing out the fact her politics preclude logical decision making is certainly relevant.
Hardly the ONLY reason. But she blogs for the Atlantic, not exactly a bulwark for right-wing "denierdom," whatever that means. Secondly, she has actually read the primary and secondary documents pertaining to this case, which you obviously haven't, otherwise you wouldn't go megafail thus:


So, you think someone at HEARTLAND blastfaxed that obviously fake "strategy" memo to DeSmog, the Guardian and other outlets eager to rip their hearts out (which was the intent, and which they did)?? :jaw-dropp

You can't have it both ways. In your simplistic narrative Heartland is the Death Star, the Force of Evil; it can't be the Keystone Kops as well...



The "skeptical analysis" has been conducted and is fairly conclusive. You just don't want to hear it. Gleick himself could submit the hard copy of this "strategy document" to forensic analysis, but he has not and probably never will.

You backed the wrong horse. He is not only a disgrace, he is a criminal. Stop defending him.
I know nothing about the Atlantic, I haven't looked into it. I have seen what's been reported about McArdle. She is, at best, a convienient and thoughtless mouthpiece. At worst, a paid mis-informer.

With regards to the stategy document, whether it is fake or not is really unimportant. It's contents are backed up by the other supporting documentation, none of which is regarded as 'fake'. Whomever wrote that document is immaterial as it cannot be proven.

Gleick acted unprofessionally and unethically, a situation that he could not live with himself, hence his admission and resignations. He is hardly a criminal though. Such a suggestion is pure hyperbole.

Get over it, HI revealed themselves to be a conduit for tax avoidance and propaganda. It pays for position papers that bare little resemblance to scientific fact.
 
And your compelling evidence of criminality is?

Nothing. He doesn't have any, of course. He's made his mind up, and that's that.

For the rest of us, the document isn't fake until it is proven a fake. There's nothing "obvious" about it, and we certainly won't take HI's word for it, professional liars as they are.
 
Call me crazy, but what does the criminality of Gleick have to do with the price of rice in India? No, really. It's a big fat red-herring and we all know it. Why defend him or let the deniers set the debate, at all?

Here's what the deniers are doing: they want to keep this a scientific debate, but it's moved beyond science. Since it's now an empirical fact that climate change is underway, and anthropogenic sources contribute, it has become an ethical debate. We can do something about OUR contribution to the problem, therefore we should.

Denier knowitalls would like to continue nitpicking the details of yesterday's science, or derail with unrelated subjects like Gleick. But many of the predictions of the '90s are emerging realities of the '10s, so we may safely set the deniers concerns aside and move on to the more pressing research needed. How to mitigate and ultimately end our contribution to CO2 forcing, including all of it's known amplifying factors (particulates, deforestation, etc.)?

Clearly, the biggie is sustainable energy. Solar, wind, and whatever else works that doesn't burn petroleum.
 
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