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Moderated Global Warming Discussion

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This is in fact copypasta. Not only that but the formatting makes it impossible to read. :confused:

You find facts and statements from your own references "confusing?" I guess that's a big first step for you! Try taking a few basic science classes, the online varients are a bit tougher when you lack the basics, but even if you don't get it the first time through, a couple of passes through the basics should help you to gain at least the modicum of understanding necessary to follow along, and please don't hesitate to ask questions, its the only way to demonstrate what you don't understand and what you need help with.

Is there anything you'd like to discuss about the science? How about the fact that it isn't near settled, and 95% of climate scientists think it is anything but "mature"? Even entropy is poorly understood.

Please support your contention that *95% of climate scientists think the science of climatology is not a mature science.* Beyond that, certainly, present and reference (from any legitimate journal published science source) what science you find confusing or wish to discuss, and I will be happy to join you in its discussion. If, however, you are just going to repeat political blog rants and pseudoscience distortions and confusions while expecting others to accept them as gospel, I have better ways to spend my time.

The temperature has risen less than 0.5 degrees in the last 150 years,

This is incorrect, the IPCC AR4 lists the temp. rise over the last century at 0.74°C with a 90% confidence interval. But I'd be willing to look at any mainstream published science that you care to present indicating otherwise.
http://www.ipcc.ch/publications_and_data/ar4/syr/en/spms1.html

there's no reason to believe it will rise any more than that in the next 150 except seriously flawed models.

No reason, other than the fact that the factors causing the temperature increase are accelerating and non-linear processes, and this isn't modelling this is observed fact, as demonstrated by the increasing rate of temp increase, which is currently at about 0.12 degrees per decade and still rising.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_warming
http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/science/recenttc.html
http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories2011/20110112_globalstats.html
http://www.giss.nasa.gov/research/news/20110112/
 
Every day. Crops are engineered to thrive in today's climate. Take a look at the yields 20 years ago and today.

I posted in response to your :

"There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that crops will be developed to take advantage on the increase in CO2. None."

I took that to mean direct advantage of inceased CO2, not indirect through its effect on climate. While apparently not what you intended, I still think that's a reasonable interpretation.

Regarding the indirect effects, I'm sure there's work being done on, for instance, drought-resistance, although as climate zones change it would appear easier to migrate existing crops and strains correspondingly. Isn't that what you expect to happen with grain as permafrost melts in Canada and Siberia?
 
Man made CO2 contributes to warming. To what extent and effect is ostensibly pseudoscience.

Ostensible : being such in appearance rather than reality; professed, declared. (Longman Dictionary)

Another black swan moment I fear. You profess it to be a pseudoscience, presumably because that's how it's been professed to your own uncritical self, but the reality is quite different.

AGW is, in fact, waming due to increased CO2. Which you concede. The fact that warming of the predicted order has indeed followed increased CO2 is part of the maturing process.

The rather flailing science of AGW-denial isn't yet adolescent. Every effort dies young.
 
You find facts and statements from your own references "confusing?" I guess that's a big first step for you! Try taking a few basic science classes, the online varients are a bit tougher when you lack the basics, but even if you don't get it the first time through, a couple of passes through the basics should help you to gain at least the modicum of understanding necessary to follow along, and please don't hesitate to ask questions, its the only way to demonstrate what you don't understand and what you need help with.

Nope, wrong again. I have extensive knowledge in physics and thermodynamics well beyond anything you've ever dreamed of. I'm quite sure I've forgot more than you know (I've got the marks to prove it) :D

Please support your contention that *95% of climate scientists think the science of climatology is not a mature science.*

That's a fact many alarmists tend to willingly overlook.

This is incorrect, the IPCC AR4 lists the temp. rise over the last century at 0.74°C with a 90% confidence interval.

Adjusted data based on incorrect assumptions and decidedly unscientific methods of acquisition. It's a best guess, and the best guess is still a guess.

No reason, other than the fact that the factors causing the temperature increase are accelerating and non-linear processes, and this isn't modelling this is observed fact, as demonstrated by the increasing rate of temp increase, which is currently at about 0.12 degrees per decade and still rising.

Meaningless until we have at least another 25 years of data. We're just beginning to get reliable data on the current Global mean temperature.
 
'No reason to believe it will increase over the next 50 years'? Oh really. I take it you don't realise that we are not in an equilibrium state? Even if we stopped adding any excess CO2 to the atmosphere (a completely silly scenario) we would be looking at another 0.6 deg C at least, just from what we've already done!
 
Please support your contention that *95% of climate scientists think the science of climatology is not a mature science.*

I'd like to see that too, and exactly what the definition of "mature" is in this context.

Until thirty years or so ago the science was essentially palaeoclimatology prompted by the Ice Age Question, a very small subset of Earth Sciences. Now it's getting a lot more attention, and there's a directly observable experiment going on.

There's a directly observable denial effort going on as well, but we've had those before (tobacco, acid rain, environmental lead, ozone depletion ...) and the techniques used are fully-matured. Over-ripe, even. Nothing new to see there.
 
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704422204576130300992126630.html

The Weather Isn't Getting Weirder

The latest research belies the idea that storms are getting more extreme.

… snip …

Some climate alarmists would have us believe that these storms are yet another baleful consequence of man-made CO2 emissions. In addition to the latest weather events, they also point to recent cyclones in Burma, last winter's fatal chills in Nepal and Bangladesh, December's blizzards in Britain, and every other drought, typhoon and unseasonable heat wave around the world.

But is it true? To answer that question, you need to understand whether recent weather trends are extreme by historical standards. The Twentieth Century Reanalysis Project is the latest attempt to find out, using super-computers to generate a dataset of global atmospheric circulation from 1871 to the present.

As it happens, the project's initial findings, published last month, show no evidence of an intensifying weather trend. "In the climate models, the extremes get more extreme as we move into a doubled CO2 world in 100 years," atmospheric scientist Gilbert Compo, one of the researchers on the project, tells me from his office at the University of Colorado, Boulder. "So we were surprised that none of the three major indices of climate variability that we used show a trend of increased circulation going back to 1871."

Here's the chart for tropical cyclones …

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k247/dhm1353/USClimateExtremesIndex.png

No, current climate doesn't look all that unusual over the last 100 years.

And from
http://debunkhouse.wordpress.com/

“Same as it ever was”… The rate of warming.

When confronted with the fact that the current global temperature anomaly is not significantly different than the warmest part of the Medieval Warm Period, the Gorebots will resort to the claim that the rate of warming in the late 20th century was unprecedented.

That claim, like most other Gorebot claims, is false.

Here is the HadCRUT3 global temperature anomaly (GTA)*for 1977-2010 plotted with the GTA for 1911-1944…

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k247/dhm1353/Had_Early20vlate20-1.png

Yep … looks like a straight line. :D
 
Originally Posted by TShaitanaku
And aside from a few political opinion pieces published as letters to the editor or in political/economic journals, not one legitimate scientific journal publication intimating that mainstream climate science or the mainstream science supported AGW theory is pseudoscience.

That's funny,
'Climate scientists are skeptical of the mediaOnly 1% of climate scientists rate either broadcast or cable television news about climate change as “very reliable.” Another 31% say broadcast news is “somewhat reliable,” compared to 25% for cable news. (The remainder rate TV news as “not very” or “not at all” reliable.) Local newspapers are rated as very reliable by 3% and somewhat reliable by 33% of scientists. Even the national press (New York Times, Wall St. Journal etc) is rated as very reliable by only 11%, although another 56% say it is at least somewhat reliable.

Scientists don't believe the mainstream media is reliable but that's all you ever seem to quote. You know why they don't really believe it, because they consider the mainstream "pseudoscience".

Please point out anywhere that I have quoted from or indicated anything regarding "mainstream media."

For the curious:

Mainstream Media: Mainstream media, or mass media, is generally applied to print publications, such as newspapers and magazines that contain the highest readership among the public, along with television and radio stations that contain the highest viewing and listener audience, respectively.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mainstream#In_the_media

As should be apparent through my continuous and repeated qualification, "Mainstream Science," as I have been using the term refers to studies, discussions and understandings in a given field of science that represent or reflect the current mainstream professional scientific discourse in that field. Most specifically that which appears in peer-reviewed, professional journals recognized as legitimate and respected by the professionals within that field of science, but also inclusive of any the official findings and documentations of any professional private, educational or governmental organization/group of scientists and researchers dedicated to a given field study. As your own reference stated:
"...Get your conclusions published in the scientific literature. Not a letter to the editor, not a book by Nigel Calder or Michael Crichton, not mentioned in the popular media or on a blog. Come up with something that passes stringent review..."​
 
Originally Posted by TShaitanaku
This is in direct denial of AGW and mainstream climate science understandings regarding current climate change events.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scienti...climate_change
lol, who's denying AGW?

CO2 from burning fossil fuels has contributed a bit to the 0.5 degree increase in temperature in the last 150 years. Nobody denies that!

This is incorrect and not what AGW states.

AGW says nothing about "a bit"

AGW states that:
Global warming is the increase in the average temperature of Earth's near-surface air and oceans since the mid-20th century and its projected continuation. According to the 2007 Fourth Assessment Report by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), global surface temperature increased 0.74 ± 0.18 °C (1.33 ± 0.32 °F) during the 20th century.[2][A] Most of the observed temperature increase since the middle of the 20th century has been caused by increasing concentrations of greenhouse gases, which result from human activity such as the burning of fossil fuel and deforestation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropogenic_global_warming_theory
 
Nope, wrong again. I have extensive knowledge in physics and thermodynamics well beyond anything you've ever dreamed of. I'm quite sure I've forgot more than you know (I've got the marks to prove it) :D

All the more sad that there is no evidence of this in any of your postings.

Originally Posted by TShaitanaku
Please support your contention that *95% of climate scientists think the science of climatology is not a mature science.*

That's a fact many alarmists tend to willingly overlook.[/quotes]

Facts can be demonstrated, so far we are still awaiting your support for this assertion.


Originally Posted by TShaitanaku
This is incorrect, the IPCC AR4 lists the temp. rise over the last century at 0.74°C with a 90% confidence interval.
Adjusted data based on incorrect assumptions and decidedly unscientific methods of acquisition. It's a best guess, and the best guess is still a guess.

There is no need for you to continue guessing, I referenced the facts they are easily accessible to any who can find their way here.

Originally Posted by TShaitanaku
No reason, other than the fact that the factors causing the temperature increase are accelerating and non-linear processes, and this isn't modelling this is observed fact, as demonstrated by the increasing rate of temp increase, which is currently at about 0.12 degrees per decade and still rising.
Meaningless until we have at least another 25 years of data. We're just beginning to get reliable data on the current Global mean temperature.

Actually if you look at the links provided, this is the new averaged rate since the 70's, and if you look even closer you'd see that the rate of increase is accelerating.
 

Not sure where that chart came from or why whoever made it felt the need to alter the data, but here is the actual chart for what this seems to be projecting:

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/extremes/cei/graph.php?period=01-12&indicator=cei.tc

please note also that this only deals with the US not the globe.



seriously?!
when you are ready to talk science instead of conspiracy theories and political pseudoscience nonsense, I will be happy to look at any peer-reviewed science you care to present.

Yep … looks like a straight line. :D
 
Wow, I thought the black swan face plant was epic.

OMG! Do you realize that you are arguing against the information that YOU provided the link to???

All you have been able to do is try and avoid and contradict all the valid science that has been posted with your unsupported opinions. Would it be OK with you if we all just sit back and you can just proceed to post more blogsphere drivel and then contradict it on your own?

One more time - you are contradicting your own blog mush that I quoted! Hello!

Originally Posted by Warmer1
So, let's address the four false tenets of the 'global warming' ideology. In summary, we can counter them and their dogma, as follows:

Yes, let's

Originally Posted by Warmer1
1. First of all, there is no real scientific evidence that demonstrates that the Earth has been warming over the past 100 years - neither for seawater, the atmosphere, nor the land mass. There is evidence that shows that there are complex interwoven cycles of intradecadal and supradecadal warming and cooling, but no data that can even be formulated as a warming rate of X deg C per decade with any legitimacy.

There is, but it is based on some rather unscientific methods of gathering data. Even then it only shows about 1/2 of a degree increase.

Originally Posted by Warmer1
2. The main effect of man-made pollution is not 'global warming' but a complex alteration of atmospheric chemistry and energy conversion processes, little of which is being investigated.

The theory is sound, however the actual climate is much, much more complex than simply measuring CO2 concentration and determining the temperature increase and projecting that out over decades.

Originally Posted by Warmer1
3. The role of carbon dioxide in warming the atmosphere has been overestimated, partly because so little is known about that atmospheric chemistry.
Not the chemistry but the physics.

If the Earth was a stationary ball of water hovering in space, and the Sun and ideal source of radiation, the effect of increasing CO2 would be fairly easy to estimate. Since it isn't things are much, much more difficult.

Is there any of this you disagree with?
[/QUOTE]
 
Nope, wrong again. I have extensive knowledge in physics and thermodynamics well beyond anything you've ever dreamed of. I'm quite sure I've forgot more than you know (I've got the marks to prove it) :D

So you say. You'll forgive my scepticism, I'm sure.

That's a fact many alarmists tend to willingly overlook.

It's not actually a fact.

Adjusted data based on incorrect assumptions and decidedly unscientific methods of acquisition. It's a best guess, and the best guess is still a guess.

The data is adjusted to account for known biases, the assumptions are not incorrect, and the methods of data acquisition are completely scientific. This makes for very good estimates, as has been borne out by events.

Meaningless until we have at least another 25 years of data. We're just beginning to get reliable data on the current Global mean temperature.

We have many decades of good climate data sufficient to estimate global means. The world is getting warmer and it's getting warmer faster. These are facts you tend to ignore. Repeatedly. Ad infinitum.
 

There's some hilarious stuff in there (apparently we Brits are struggling to recover from the cold December :D) but I'll stick to the point in hand.

Here http://www.lbl.gov/cs/CSnews/CSnews12511.html we find

"In this second and complete version (20CRv2), the global atmospheric fields for 1871 to 2008 have been generated."

2008. All the examples the WSJ points to as not being unusual according to this are from 2010 and 2011. 2010 was the year when things went pretty haywire, and 2011 has got off to an interesting start. It'll be interesting to see just how unremarkable that was when compared to the pre-2009 benchmark. It's a little bit previous to do comment before that's in, but nothing stops the WSJ when it has a nice little "Nothing to see here, move along ..." piece to put up. They can't get enough of those these days.

Thinking of which, isn't this the season for a George Will piece on how Arctic Ice has recovered? We just can't depend on the seasons like we used to :(.
 
If the Earth was a stationary ball of water hovering in space, and the Sun and ideal source of radiation, the effect of increasing CO2 would be fairly easy to estimate. Since it isn't things are much, much more difficult.

If the Earth were a waterless rock it would also be a simple matter. It's the presence of water in all three phases which makes the place so interesting :).
 
Not sure where that chart came from or why whoever made it felt the need to alter the data

Can you explain your assertion that they altered data? The chart I posted and the chart you posted are IDENTICAL except for the chart I posted having added an arrow denoting when we are on the time axis. And as for where the chart came from, isn't it obvious that it came from your link? :rolleyes:
 
According to The New York Times, human influence on the atmosphere (effects of greenhouses gases released by human activities) is at least partly responsible for increased heavy precipitation:
An increase in heavy precipitation that has afflicted many countries is at least partly a consequence of human influence on the atmosphere, climate scientists reported in a new study.
In the first major paper of its kind, the researchers used elaborate computer programs that simulate the climate to analyze whether the rise in severe rainstorms, heavy snowfalls and similar events could be explained by natural variability in the atmosphere. They found that it could not, and that the increase made sense only when the computers factored in the effects of greenhouse gases released by human activities like the burning of fossil fuels.

As reflected in previous studies, the likelihood of extreme precipitation on any given day rose by about 7 percent over the last half of the 20th century, at least for the land areas of the Northern Hemisphere for which sufficient figures are available to do an analysis.

The principal finding of the new study is “that this 7 percent is well outside the bounds of natural variability,” said Francis W. Zwiers, a Canadian climate scientist who took part in the research. The paper is being published in Thursday’s edition of the journal Nature.


NatureNews says about the study (Published online 16 February 2011 | Nature 470, 316 (2011) | doi:10.1038/470316a):
Increased flood risk linked to global warming

Likelihood of extreme rainfall may have been doubled by rising greenhouse-gas levels.

Climate change may be hitting home. Rises in global average temperature are remote from most people's experience, but two studies in this week's Nature1,2 conclude that climate warming is already causing extreme weather events that affect the lives of millions. The research directly links rising greenhouse-gas levels with the growing intensity of rain and snow in the Northern Hemisphere, and the increased risk of flooding in the United Kingdom.

Insurers will take note, as will those developing policies for adapting to climate change. "This has immense importance not just as a further justification for emissions reduction, but also for adaptation planning," says Michael Oppenheimer, a climate-policy researcher at Princeton University in New Jersey, who was not involved in the studies.

There is no doubt that humans are altering the climate, but the implications for regional weather are less clear. No computer simulation can conclusively attribute a given snowstorm or flood to global warming. But with a combination of climate models, weather observations and a good dose of probability theory, scientists may be able to determine how climate warming changes the odds. An earlier study3, for example, found that global warming has at least doubled the likelihood of extreme events such as the 2003 European heatwave.


According to The New York Times article,
...the paper covers climate trends from 1951 to 1999 and therefore does not include any analysis of last year’s extreme precipitation, including catastrophic floods in Pakistan, China and Australia as well as parts of the United States, including Tennessee, Arkansas and California. However, the paper is likely to bolster a growing sense among climate scientists that events like the 2010 floods will become more common.
<snip>
Scientists have long been reluctant to attribute any specific weather event to global warming, but a handful of papers that do so are beginning to appear in the scientific literature. One such installment is being published on Thursday in Nature as a companion piece to the broader paper. It finds that severe rains that flooded England and Wales in 2000, the wettest autumn since record-keeping began there in 1766, were made substantially more likely by the greenhouse gases released by human activity.
In that analysis, scientists at the University of Oxford used computer time donated by the public to analyze the climate of Britain in 2000 as it actually existed and to compare that with a hypothetical climate in which the Industrial Revolution never happened and few greenhouse gases were released.

The computers found that the chances of those memorable floods, which sent geese swimming through city streets, were roughly doubled in a climate with the greenhouse gases.

That it took a decade to come to that conclusion illustrates one of the major problems of climate science at the moment. Researchers are barraged with questions about weather extremes like the recent winters in Europe and the United States and the heat waves and droughts of last summer.
Yet, even when adequate weather statistics are available for an affected region, the scientists need years to run computer analyses of any specific event and calculate whether it was made more or less likely by global warming.
So even more reports on effects of AGW Or global warming. Or global weather change. Whatever they call it, the stuff where we've screwed up the atmosphere and aren't doing anything much about it, if it weren't too late for any substantive change in the near future anyway. That stuff. That experts are studying from different angles and for different reasons (duh! I never even thought about insurance, much less aid to countries more severely impacted by AGW effects). Even more interesting than the studies (which I can only understand vaguely) is the mention of the difficulties in researching this area.

I hadn't realized the time scales needed to analyze data (assuming data are even available for the area being studied). Is that an exaggeration, or does it really take years to run computer analyses of specific events to calculate whether global warming made it more or less likely? And what kind of times are involved in modeling future trends? Is that a years-long proposition as well? I had assumed (yes, I know) that computer programs took maybe months to set up and run, but years?? How does that work? Is it because computer time is in dribs and drabs or is this years of constant running the program?

Is this time-frame common in science? If so, why doesn't stuff like this get mentioned (unglamorous, I know) so ordinary people have some idea of the difficulties and magnitudes of work involved. A writer researches a biography for years and we're impressed. Scientific studies come out and may elicit headlines and sound-bites. No mention of the massive amounts of time and work involved. So maybe all the other scientists already know this, but you're trying to sell science to the average Joe. And right now, Science needs a better PR guy. It's not just amazing that anything gets done, it's a freaking miracle (in any non-theistic, theistic, figural, or actual sense you want).

And what is the bit about computer time donated by the public? Don't scientists get government money for computer time in the UK? Or only some programs, or some institutions or what do they mean? They make it sound like anyone can call up some anonymous "them" and say "give global warming my 5 minutes on Saturday; research into cancer can have 10 minutes on Monday." Is this the normal way to allocate computer time, kind of a popularity contest with the public as to which subjects are "hottest" and beat out the others? Or is it just a terminology thing, and scientists don't have problems getting computer time to do studies?
 
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