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Moderated Global Warming Discussion

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This is an alternative solution to the global warming problem. Develop technology to trigger massive volcanic eruptions and create an upper atmosphere haze covering the entire planet. Solar energy reaching the surface drops and counteracts the CO2 forcing from burning fossil fuels. :rolleyes:

How do you propose to trigger massive volcanic eruptions in a manner where the "cure" isn't as bad as the problem? More importantly, higher levels of CO2 have other rather dramatic effects in addition to warming the atmosphere.
 
The state was going after the University to get Mann's emails in order to determine if fraud was committed. If you don't think Mann was on trial here I suppose that's technically correct. It's woefully naive though.

You cannot "go after" someone to try and prove a crime without reasonable cause to believe that a crime was committed,...at least not in the US. Such is an abuse of power, and considered a crime (statutory violation with prejudice), in and of itself. It is not just "technically correct," it is the law.
 
As do most warmists. They tend to have religious like fanaticism when anything they believe in is challenged.
Of course people find it wrong that deniers try to suppress science through legal action rather than scientific facts. The only positive about it is that it shows how scientifically weak you regard your own case, and that it puts you firmly on the side of evil, which is heart-warming.
 
You cannot "go after" someone to try and prove a crime without reasonable cause to believe that a crime was committed,...at least not in the US. Such is an abuse of power, and considered a crime (statutory violation with prejudice), in and of itself. It is not just "technically correct," it is the law.

Well "technically" they weren't going after someone, they were going after the emails. The reality is they're going after the emails to go after Mann. Even I know this.
 
Of course people find it wrong that deniers try to suppress science through legal action rather than scientific facts.

Because inquiring about emails is supressing science? Seems like a non sequitur to me.

The only positive about it is that it shows how scientifically weak you regard your own case, and that it puts you firmly on the side of evil, which is heart-warming.

:boggled:

So there's an evil side and a good side? And this doesn't sound like religious fanaticism how?
 
This is an alternative solution to the global warming problem. Develop technology to trigger massive volcanic eruptions and create an upper atmosphere haze covering the entire planet. Solar energy reaching the surface drops and counteracts the CO2 forcing from burning fossil fuels. :rolleyes:

It's a pound to a piece of [Rule8] that Haliburton gets the contract. It'll be the Siberian Traps and End-Permian extinction all over again :cool:.
 
The state was going after the University to get Mann's emails in order to determine if fraud was committed. If you don't think Mann was on trial here I suppose that's technically correct. It's woefully naive though.

So you're using "on trial" as a figure of speech.

Whenever Mann publishes research he puts himself on trial in the court that matters to a scientist - the court of his peers. He's not on trial in Virginia. What's on trial in Virginia is Cuccinelli and the whole denier-machine that you are so easily manipulated by.

You imagine that Cuccinelli actually cares whether Mann has committed fraud (for which there is absolutely no evidence) and you call me naive?

In Cuccinelli we have an ambitious politician who wishes to use his office (State Attorney-General) as a stepping stone towards greater things. First he has to become the leading-light of the Virginia Republican party, and to do that he needs to raise his profile in AGW denial circles. How can he lever himself into that issue, which lies well outside his purview?

I doubt it was Cuccinelli who spotted the way to do it, he's really not that bright. Covering up nipples is more his league. Somebody smart noticed that Mann had once been involved in research at the State University, involving State funds. There's nothing remotely questionable about the grant application, of course, but a good legal mind can find a way around that.

Cuccinelli's isn't a fine legal mind, obviously, but they are provided for him (some of them publicly funded; there's a potential backwash effect there) and they came up with this little gem. Demand private correspondence because it might contain something that makes the grant application questionable.

Tell me, my little naif, what is it that makes Cuccinelli concerned about this particular grant application? Why does he not simply demand all private emails sent or received on a State University account so he can check out all these scientists? Why specifically the Mann application?

You know the answer, of course. It's why you, and people like you, think this is important. It has made Cuccinelli's name in AGW-denier circles, and I'd bet on him for the governership. And in 2016 ... who can say? Palin rose without trace; Cuccinelli could as well.
 
Not according to the Virginia FOIA law, specificially the section that I quoted.


I was responding you you comment about Canadian law.

Actually, it does make many distinctions, depending on the wording of the individual acts in various countries. The current ATI case wouldn't have ever got off the ground in Canada as citizen's are only allowed to request government records.
 
Well "technically" they weren't going after someone, they were going after the emails. The reality is they're going after the emails to go after Mann. Even I know this.

And this, you think, puts Mann "on trial"?

Mann has certainly been got at since he and his et al published the first global surface temperature reconstruction (aka Hockey-Stick) back in the 20thCE. Convinced that this is the lynch-pin of AGW "theory" and unable to move on, deniers seek to discredit Mann as a scientist. When they can't do that they turn to lobbyists and lawyers, who are more than happy to provide at a price. Well, there's no shortage of money for AGW denial.

At the same time many deniers imagine a world-wide conspiracy of almost all scientists whose fields of research are remotely related to climate, and the lobbyists sell that to them as well. Go figure.

With regard to the emails (and hopefully to put this to rest), there is nothing in the grant application which might be put in question by anything in the emails. Unless you've imagined something I haven't, which I doubt.
 
Well "technically" they weren't going after someone, they were going after the emails. The reality is they're going after the emails to go after Mann. Even I know this.

Well, you can't go after the emails, without probable cause. You don't get to just investigate people and rummage through their personal papers and communications because you don't like them and want to see what you can find to gin up and harass them with, that is an abuse of power, and a statutory crime in itself,...even (and especially) if you are the Attorney General of the State.
 
I was responding you you comment about Canadian law.

Ah,...my mistake, I thought you were replying to the response concerning the ATI case itself, not the Canadian reference. The review discussion I read regarding the Canadian FOIA statute stated the issue differently than what I am understanding in you responses. Wiki seems to support my understanding but wiki is not a reliable source for such information, I will attempt to recall the review I read and post a link.
 
Because inquiring about emails is supressing science? Seems like a non sequitur to me.
Technically, they are going after emails, but you and I know that they are going after Mann. They have also asked that his funding is discontinued.

So there's an evil side and a good side? And this doesn't sound like religious fanaticism how?
Exactly! I would have thought this should be a discussion of scientific merit, but the fanaticism of the deniers, and their harassment of Mann, has revealed this to be a moral issue too.
 
So you're using "on trial" as a figure of speech.

Whenever Mann publishes research he puts himself on trial in the court that matters to a scientist - the court of his peers. He's not on trial in Virginia. What's on trial in Virginia is Cuccinelli and the whole denier-machine that you are so easily manipulated by.

You imagine that Cuccinelli actually cares whether Mann has committed fraud (for which there is absolutely no evidence) and you call me naive?

In Cuccinelli we have an ambitious politician who wishes to use his office (State Attorney-General) as a stepping stone towards greater things. First he has to become the leading-light of the Virginia Republican party, and to do that he needs to raise his profile in AGW denial circles. How can he lever himself into that issue, which lies well outside his purview?

I doubt it was Cuccinelli who spotted the way to do it, he's really not that bright. Covering up nipples is more his league. Somebody smart noticed that Mann had once been involved in research at the State University, involving State funds. There's nothing remotely questionable about the grant application, of course, but a good legal mind can find a way around that.

Cuccinelli's isn't a fine legal mind, obviously, but they are provided for him (some of them publicly funded; there's a potential backwash effect there) and they came up with this little gem. Demand private correspondence because it might contain something that makes the grant application questionable.

Tell me, my little naif, what is it that makes Cuccinelli concerned about this particular grant application? Why does he not simply demand all private emails sent or received on a State University account so he can check out all these scientists? Why specifically the Mann application?

You know the answer, of course. It's why you, and people like you, think this is important. It has made Cuccinelli's name in AGW-denier circles, and I'd bet on him for the governership. And in 2016 ... who can say? Palin rose without trace; Cuccinelli could as well.

This is a nice conspiracy theory, but a conspiracy theory none the less.
 
And this, you think, puts Mann "on trial"?

Does he have a lawyer and is he in court? Because that's "on trial" where I'm from. It's a pretty simple metric and I'd be shocked if it's not the same just about everywhere in the English speaking World.
 
Exactly! I would have thought this should be a discussion of scientific merit, but the fanaticism of the deniers, and their harassment of Mann, has revealed this to be a moral issue too.

This is typical of the hyperbole coming from warmists. If anything is challenged it's "evil harassment". You may be unaware but in North America harassment is illegal. Until there is court action at least initiated by those representing Mann claims of "harassment" are smoke screen and handwaving.
 
With regard to the emails (and hopefully to put this to rest), there is nothing in the grant application which might be put in question by anything in the emails. Unless you've imagined something I haven't, which I doubt.

This would qualify you for the MDC, unless of course you're on the UVA legal team and have read the emails. Or you're Mann himself.
 
No because it was shot down early on.
[/qupote]
No - because there was never a case brought against Mann so he was never on trial :jaw-dropp!
It may be semantics, Furcifer but it is quite simple: All of the leagal stuff has involved the UVa, not Mann.

lol and therefore protected from FOI requests. The data was protected, you're wrong.
lol, there was no data. There was nio FOI requests. Read what I wrote:
Originally Posted by Reality Check
There was the civil investigative demands (CID) case brought by Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli against the University of Virginia under the Fraud Against Taxpayers Act (FATA) to get access to Mann's personal correspondence. He was refused because the UVA is not a person as defined under FATA.
It was a CID (not a FOI).
It was for personal correspondence (not data).
The personal correspondence was not protected - the CID was legally invalid because the UVA is not a person as defined under FATA.

If Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli has an real case rather then just political bias (or a perverse wish to waste tax-payer money) then he would have issued the CID against an actual person, i.e. Mann.
He had no evidence so he tried to squeeze the data out of the UVA and was quashed.


Nonsense. That's like saying OJ was cleared of any wrongdoing.
Nonsense. That is like admitting that you are ignorant of the actual situation and the investigatons into the Climategate emails.
Ken Cuccinelli did not cease wasting tax-payer money even when investigations of the Climate-gate emails cleared Mann of any wrongdoing.
Pennsylvania State University announced in December 2009 it would review the work of Michael Mann, in particular looking at anything that had not already been addressed in an earlier review by the National Research Council of the National Academy of Sciences which had found some faults with his methodology but agreed with the results.[98][99][100] In response, Mann said he would welcome the review.[100] The inquiry committee determined on 3 February 2010 that there was no credible evidence Mann suppressed or falsified data, destroyed emails, information and/or data related to the IPCC Fourth Assessment Report, or misused privileged or confidential information. The committee did not make a definitive finding on the final point of inquiry — "whether Dr. Mann seriously deviated from accepted practices within the academic community for proposing, conducting, or reporting research or other scholarly activities". The committee said that the earlier NAS inquiry had found "that Dr. Mann’s science did fall well within the bounds of accepted practice", but in light of the newly available information this question of conduct was to be investigated by a second panel of five prominent Penn State scientists from other scientific disciplines.[36][101]
The second Investigatory Committee reported on 4 June 2010 that it had "determined that Dr. Michael E. Mann did not engage in, nor did he participate in, directly or indirectly, any actions that seriously deviated from accepted practices within the academic community." Regarding his sharing unpublished manuscripts with colleagues on the assumption of implied consent, it considered such sharing to be "careless and inappropriate" without following the best practice of getting express consent from the authors in advance, though expert opinion on this varied. It said that his success in proposing research and obtaining funding for it, commenting that this "clearly places Dr. Mann among the most respected scientists in his field. Such success would not have been possible had he not met or exceeded the highest standards of his profession for proposing research." Mann's extensive recognitions within the research community demonstrated that "his scientific work, especially the conduct of his research, has from the beginning of his career been judged to be outstanding by a broad spectrum of scientists." It agreed unanimously that "there is no substance" to the allegations against Mann.[102][103]
Mann said he regretted not objecting to a suggestion from Jones in a 29 May 2008 message that he destroy emails. "I wish in retrospect I had told him, 'Hey, you shouldn't even be thinking about this,'" Mann said in March 2010. "I didn't think it was an appropriate request." Mann's response to Jones at the time was that he would pass on the request to another scientist. "The important thing is, I didn't delete any emails. And I don't think [Jones] did either."[104]
 
Well here's a more recent one:



Post 4800 is another. I posted one more then a year ago that I can't find. As Capel alluded to mhaze posted one as well, possibly 2 years ago.

They weren't addressed then and I doubt if they will now.
Then, there's a problem. Which one is the "complete list" as you told? Pick one, please.

If you make a convincing argument that such list is a serious list and not a dialectical tactic called saturation (self explanatory, but its base is to provoke a no-response by limitations of resources, then enlarging the list to claim a no-response by lack of arguments), then, you'll have some answers.

I don't think that'll happen. Those lists are not very different that speaking badly of Johnny: "Johnny is a bad person; Johnny kicked a puppy; Johnny almost kicked a puppy; Johnny killed a puppy because it had kicked Johnny accidentally; that puppy-kicking scum of Johnny broke a window; ..."
 
This is a nice conspiracy theory, but a conspiracy theory none the less.

It is not a conspiracy theory, it's something which is glaringly obvious to anyone with an ounce of political understanding.

Think for a moment: had you heard of Cuccinelli before he got into this project? I very much doubt it - I hadn't, and I keep well-abreast of current affairs. Why would I (or you) notice Virginia's State's Attorney unless alerted to his nipple-covering hilarity?

This is as much a conspiracy as any politician's career is. Itis, in fact, perfectly normal politics. Cuccinelli wanted to raise his profile in the GOP; AGW denial is a great way to achieve it, but how's a lawyer to get on that platform? Voila! Start a case against one of the great demons of the denier-world, Mann of the Hockey-Stick. He even gets to press the "activist judges" button, which is difficult in Virginia.

This may seem revelatory to you, and far less difficult to believe than that Mann may have revealed a conspiracy in his emails in a way that the SlimateItGate selection failed to (such a disappointment to so many that they'll never accept it), but it's pedestrian stuff. Nobody's going to write a historical thesis on Cuccinelli's motivations, and the notion that he actually suspected Mann of fraud is laughable.
 
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