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Cont: Global warming discussion V

You are ignorant of the science and the proposals from the IPCC. You do not know what they are. You do not understand them. You do not argue against them. You just repeat a mantra of self serving cynicism that you never explain. Why? What's in it for you?
Oh I understand the science and the proposals just fine, it's you that's clinging to a failing strategy hoping that, any day now, we're going to see some results knowing full well that the current strategy is feeble and lame. Go ahead, post some article or video and pretend you're making a difference while you consume consume consume then scan the bottom of your posts looking for digital asspats.

It's totally working.
 
Yes, we know the fairy tale. We have been hearing it since time immemorial (i.e. since the beginning of capitalism).
It wasn't because Apple wanted to be competitive that they outsourced the production of iPhones to "developing nation slave worker countries." It was obviously because consumers demanded it!
Consumers told Apple executives to outsource iPhone production to China, and in response to consumer demand, all new iPhones display the following text:
"We proudly present our new iPhone, which we guarantee was manufactured 100% by slave workers in developing nations instead of in the USA."

You know, much the say way that AI companies now advertise:
"Our AI slop is generated 100% by using CO2-emitting gas turbines. We guarantee that are free from all trace amounts of wind or solar-generated electricity."
Dude, are you OK?

How much would you be willing to pay for a locally produced phone? Assuming that it that the west hadn't ◊◊◊◊ the bed and exported most of it's manufacturing capability out to Asia?. Double, triple?
 
Pretty sure I have already posted this, but in case not,
Holznot
I don't know if you did, but I do notice that you forgot "about a million years ago" in your original claim. It seems that you are now only talking about the centuries immediately before the 1850s.
Your arguments require very selective editing of the parts of my posts you quote. Your link confirms this impression:
In particular, the concept was applied to Central Europe around the end of the 16th century until the start of the early 19th century in numerous sources.
In this is case it is how it worked. Oil was mined primarily for kerosene (used for lighting) and lubricants. Gasoline was a useless byproduct that was dumped. Not sure why you are trying to deny this because it's the best example of a product that the oil companies might have been wanting to create a market for. Kerosene wasn't it, demand was high because the preferred alternative - sperm whale oil - was expensive and becoming harder to get (ironically the use of fossil fueled ships allowed the whaling industry to continue into the 1960s, by which time some whale species had been virtually wiped out).

Most EV owners charge at home unless they are going on a long trip. I doubt that I will ever use the chargers mentioned because they are only 1.5km away from my house and the old Leaf doesn't like fast charging. The importance of these chargers isn't so much the availability as the visibility. Hastings has had had a fast charger for years, but it's in a location most people don't know about. Having them at petrol stations tells the public that they don't have to go looking for a charger because their favorite gas station has them. It also means they can get help from the friendly station attendant if they need it. This make the transition a lot easier psychologically.
You assume that most EV owners live in one-family houses with a garage because you do so yourself, apparently. That is a very limited market. In my street, they don't, and I doubt that our local authorities would let me charge an electric vehicle with a cable out of the window from my apartment.
Besides, it's not just a question of visibility or psychology. People tend to notice and tell each other what's available in the neighborhood. It's a question of convenience. Your "only (!) 1.5km away" says it all. Once again, Smallegade, for comparison.
The other important thing is that it helps oil companies transition to a post fossil-fuel future. They will simply be selling electricity instead of petrol, switching over gradually as demand changes. Eventually most stations will pull out their hazardous underground tanks and go fully electric. One supermarket here is in the process of pulling out its gas station to get more parking spaces. It will be interesting to see if they include some EV chargers too. Rather than getting a fuel discount voucher with your groceries they might offer free charging.
:sdl:
You never consider the obvious truth you present when you are trying to come up with an argument for your delusion: You are right! It is actually about helping oil companies, not the consumers! That is what slows down the transition! The oil industry and the politicians that they bribe want to make sure that their investments don't become worthless, which is why they are doing their utmost to make sure that the transition doesn't happen too fast, and that is why they complain that China is moving forward much faster than they want. So they want China to slow down, too, because the speed with which China is accomplishing the transition goes much too fast for the profit calculations of capitalists in the Western world to keep up.
This is an example of how suppliers and consumers can work together to get the job done. EV owners complain about not having enough fast chargers. Petrol station owners see this as an opportunity to offer a new service. EV owners then use the service which justifies offering it. What may seem like an ineffective action by consumers becomes a big force for change. People who keep pumping petrol into their gas cars are doing the opposite, making it harder for suppliers to change.
No, it's an example of how Big Oil doesn't want to make fast chargers available too soon because it would ruin their business selling petrol! This is the exact opposite of "how suppliers and consumers can work together." It's an example of how petrol station owners (i.e. Big Oil) are putting a brake on the transition: by not supplying "enough fast chargers."
And it's obvious that they don't! You just said so yourself! :sdl:
Why do you think so few electric vehicles are sold in NZ in comparison to DK – in spite of cheap imports from Japan?
Not sure what you are trying to say here, but I can say with confidence that this is what has been happening in New Zealand. The charging network has lagged significantly behind EV adoption. One reason for this is the preponderance of used imports from Japan, including a large number of Nissan Leafs. While the older ones don't have much range they are reliable and very cheap. But not having much range means we need more chargers for long trips. Even when the Leaf was new it could only do ~90km at highways speeds. This isn't a problem for daily driving, but if you wanted to go to Taupo the one charger at the halfway point at Te Haroto (at an elevation of 2,123 feet) made it a nail-biting experience.
Yes, the charging network has lagged behind! And so has the sale of electric vehicles in NZ in comparison to Scandinavia even though we don't have a "preponderance of used imports from Japan" – at least not that I know of. And tariffs on Chinese EVs in the EU prevent them from being imported on a large scale – not for the sake of consumers but to benefit the capitalists that own European car factories.
Why do you think that the vast majority of new cars in Scandinavia are nevertheless electric?
Why do you think this part of the transition happens so slowly in New Zealand?
The infrastructure just isn't in place! You have just pointed that out yourself!
And yet, you still believe and propagate Big Oil's (and Stout's) fairy tale about fossil-fuel companies doing their utmost to satisfy the consumers' insatiable thirst for energy.
 
Dude, are you OK?

How much would you be willing to pay for a locally produced phone? Assuming that it that the west hadn't ◊◊◊◊ the bed and exported most of it's manufacturing capability out to Asia?. Double, triple?
Yes, I'm fine. Thank you for asking!
I don't want a new phone. I don't need a new phone.
All I want is a little truth in advertising.
Is that too much to ask for?
I would like to see the same thing in the supermarket:
"We guarantee that the pig was raised under miserable conditions and never had a breath of fresh air or got a glimpse of a clear blue sky or even a cloudy one.
Because we know that's what you, the consumer wants!"
 
You are ignorant of the science and the proposals from the IPCC. You do not know what they are. You do not understand them. You do not argue against them. You just repeat a mantra of self serving cynicism that you never explain. Why? What's in it for you?
That is unfair!
Stout is very concerned about the well-being of slave labour in developing countries as well as my access to cheap iPhones. That can't be described as "self-serving cynicism."
I think self-serving hypocrisy is the correct term.
 
Bloomberg on X, Oct 17, 2026
Brazil registered the lowest Amazon deforestation rate on record over the past year, allowing President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva to claim success on a key issue that’s been at the center of his platform
Brazil Sees Record Low Amazon Deforestation Rate in Win for Lula (Bloomberg, Oct 17, 2026)

Grok on X, Oct 19, 2026
Yes, it's true. Official data from INPE confirm that deforestation in the Brazilian Amazon reached 3,335 km² between August 2025 and July 2026, the lowest rate since the start of satellite monitoring in 1988. It represents a 41.8% drop compared to the previous period.

I guess that continued deforestation, but the lowest, is as good as it gets.
Interesting that Grok's owner tried to get Lula's opponent elected ...
 
All I want is a little truth in advertising.
Is that too much to ask for?
Oh you sweet summer child. Did you learn nothing when 8 year old you were staring wide eyed at the Sea Monkeys advert on the back page of the comic book before sending all the money grandma gave you for Christmas off into the wild only to get...brine shrimp.

Stout is very concerned about the well-being of slave labour in developing countries as well as my access to cheap iPhones. That can't be described as "self-serving cynicism."

Not so much concern really, just pointing out that if you have a factory workforce working 996 you're totally going to have a leg up on your western competition. Maybe that's what you want for Europe. Workers waking up in the factory dorm, pulling on their spiffy jumpsuits before heading down for a little indoctrination and Tai Chi. A quick breakfast of cold rice a jog to the workstation and mindless repetition for 12 hours with the only thing stopping you from hurling yourself into the machinery is the knowledge that you're likely, probably owning the west.
 

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Dude, are you OK?

How much would you be willing to pay for a locally produced phone? Assuming that it that the west hadn't ◊◊◊◊ the bed and exported most of it's manufacturing capability out to Asia?. Double, triple?
I'm not even willing to pay current prices. Bought a Samsung A01 Core in 2021 because I needed it for contact tracing. Android version is 3 years old now which is too old to run the latest banking app, and the phone can't be upgraded. Internet banking still works though so even though my phone has some bugs I'm keeping it until it dies. I hear that the new banking app sucks anyway, another reason not to waste $350 on a new phone.

Competitive advantage and economy of scale are things. Better to let companies with the equipment and experience make the best products at lowest cost than try to duplicate resources. Slave labor is obviously not good, but electronic companies in emerging economies are raising the standard of living in their countries. Their employees are also getting technical skills that most in the West aren't.

Electronics factories are 99% automated now. You design the product on a computer. Circuits boards are made by machine from the CAD files, components placed by machine and soldered by machine. Mechanical parts are made similarly with CNC milling etc. Technicians just have to set up the machines and feed them. Only final assembly is done by hand.

C64 production in 1983

C64 production in 2026
 
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Consumer product prices could be a lot higher if they were built to be repairable by domestic companies to last much longer.

Obsolescence is a design choice, not a necessary feature of current technologies
 
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Oh you sweet summer child. Did you learn nothing when 8 year old you were staring wide eyed at the Sea Monkeys advert on the back page of the comic book before sending all the money grandma gave you for Christmas off into the wild only to get...brine shrimp.



Not so much concern really, just pointing out that if you have a factory workforce working 996 you're totally going to have a leg up on your western competition. Maybe that's what you want for Europe. Workers waking up in the factory dorm, pulling on their spiffy jumpsuits before heading down for a little indoctrination and Tai Chi. A quick breakfast of cold rice a jog to the workstation and mindless repetition for 12 hours with the only thing stopping you from hurling yourself into the machinery is the knowledge that you're likely, probably owning the west.
Don't you get tired doing the same old one trick pony show?

You never tell us where you get your information from. I get mine from science. The reason China is all in on renewable energy is that it has no hydrocarbon fuel sources. They have to make it work. The price of fossil fuels is only going to increase over time and China plays the long game.
 
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I don't know if you did, but I do notice that you forgot "about a million years ago" in your original claim. It seems that you are now only talking about the centuries immediately before the 1850s.
I should get you down to my local park because the goalposts are getting in the way of my R/C model aircraft and I'd really like to have them moved.

I was talking about the use of wood for energy (and other things), which humans have been doing for over a million years. In Europe this resource started running out in the 1500's. The transition to coal and steam power in the 1850s was a result of this, so naturally it followed.

You assume that most EV owners live in one-family houses with a garage because you do so yourself, apparently. That is a very limited market.
I'm not just assuming, it's a fact.
UK: over 75% of households have off-street parking
NZ: over 85% of homes have offstreet parking
AU: There are more car spaces in apartments in Sydney and Melbourne than cars.

However I appreciate that some people don't have that option, which I why I advocate for EV charging in public parking spaces. A standard mains socket is all that's needed for overnight charging or topping up while shopping or at work. The cost is very low. If I was running a business today I would do that for my staff and customers.

In my street, they don't, and I doubt that our local authorities would let me charge an electric vehicle with a cable out of the window from my apartment.
Not the ideal solution, but I bet they wouldn't mind you having an approved external power socket installed. EV charging cables have RCDs installed so they are safe for outdoor use.

Besides, it's not just a question of visibility or psychology. People tend to notice and tell each other what's available in the neighborhood. It's a question of convenience.
Yes, that inconvenient truth keeps cropping up.

Your "only (!) 1.5km away" says it all. Once again, Smallegade, for comparison.

You never consider the obvious truth you present when you are trying to come up with an argument for your delusion: You are right! It is actually about helping oil companies, not the consumers! That is what slows down the transition! The oil industry and the politicians that they bribe want to make sure that their investments don't become worthless, which is why they are doing their utmost to make sure that the transition doesn't happen too fast
Bribery is bad. But it's not just oil companies that don't want to transition too fast - the whole world doesn't. People don't want to buy an EV or install solar just to reduce their carbon footprint. People don't want to pay double for gas to pay for rolling out renewables. People won't elect politicians who push for a fast transition that disrupts their lives. We have seen this happen and it isn't just (or even) due to Big Oil misinforming the public or bribing officials.

Some governments have pushed pretty hard for EV and solar adoption, resulting in significant pushback from certain sections of the community. These are the same people who pushed back against LED light bulbs and whine about their taxes going to promoting renewables etc. They didn't need to be convinced to do this - it's in their nature.

No, it's an example of how Big Oil doesn't want to make fast chargers available too soon because it would ruin their business selling petrol!
It's the same for any business, diversifying has a cost that makes it hard to justify. It's a big problem for legacy auto because selling EVs cannibalizes their gas car sales. Due to economy of scale unit costs go down as sales go up. That means EVs are hard to make at a competitive price. So you make a loss and hope sales pick up. Meanwhile your gas car sales are declining which makes them more expensive too!

What breaks this dilemma? Demand. Diversifying works when demand for the old product falls off as people want something different. Sometimes a company can create demand by offering a new product which has advantages over the old one. But that's risky.

Oil companies have all their infrastructure and expertise tied up in oil. Eventually they will have to transition to renewables as the demand shifts, but If they try to do it too early they simply lose market share as other oil companies fill the demand. It would be a lot easier for them if consumers changed their desires, but trying to force it on them is unlikely to help. So they go with the flow, changing as demand changes and hoping they don't get left behind.

Expecting businesses to unilaterally decide to change the world is not going to work. Their sole reason for existing is to make money for their owners. This applies to your local shop owner or tradesman just as much as it does Big Oil. They are just trying to live in a society that is driven by money, and you won't change that by bleating about it. There are three things you can do though:-
1. Stop buying fossil fuels.
2. Make your demand visible.
3. Support politicians who have the balls to make needed policy changes.

I don't use fast chargers because my old Leaf can't handle it, but I do go the gas station to pump my tires up. Then I go into the store and get some food, telling them 'No petrol I have an EV'. It's a subtle hint but it gets the message across.

And it's obvious that they don't! You just said so yourself! :sdl:
Why do you think so few electric vehicles are sold in NZ in comparison to DK – in spite of cheap imports from Japan?
Not charging. The main reason is simply that people don't like change. Life is hard enough already without having to rearrange it to suit a new technology. The vast majority of Kiwis don't buy new cars because they can't afford them. The majority of used EVs are early models with poor range that make them a serious challenge for people who would rather just stick with what they know. Kiwis are also very budget conscious. If EVs were cheaper they might consider them. In many cases they are cheaper, but only when fuel, maintenance and loan repayments are considered. Dealers don't tend to push these advantages for several reasons:-
1. EVs are different so customers are more likely to have 'buyer's remorse'. This makes selling them risky.
2. Dealers make money on maintenance that they get less of with EVs.
3. EVs tend to depreciate faster which makes trading up more expensive, and second-hand EVs are harder to sell.

Things are changing though. With the price of petrol now over NZ$3.60/l it's easier to pitch the lower operating cost of an EV. Cheap Chinese EVs have now reached price parity with gas cars, and they aren't depreciating as badly. The choice in EV models is now much broader too, so customers are more likely to find something they like. Finally there are enough EVs out there now that people are starting to become more comfortable with them. Seeing EV chargers at your local gas station is a part of that.

Bottom line is it takes time for the market to change. Right now EVs are quite rare in New Zealand, but demand is increasing. It took a big hit when the government changed and killed the 'clean car discount', but high fuel prices have arrived just in time to boost demand again. In a few years EVs will start to become common here, and then demand will skyrocket as they go 'mainstream'. People are far more likely to buy something if their friends have one. And when the demand is there the chargers will come (actually they are already coming).

And yet, you still believe and propagate Big Oil's (and Stout's) fairy tale about fossil-fuel companies doing their utmost to satisfy the consumers' insatiable thirst for energy.
It's not a fairy tale. If it was the price of petrol wouldn't have risen by nearly 50%.

The fact is that until recently an EV wasn't on most people's RADAR. Kiwis were quite happy paying $2/l for petrol and saw no reason to change. EV owners were considered a bit weird, either having more money than sense or being radical 'tree huggers'. Nobody took them seriously. We have a gas car culture that started in the 40's and won't go away until the people from that era are gone. Young people are more open minded and will quickly embrace EVs.

Old people are also warming to EVs as their needs change. When you aren't driving much an EV with low range is more acceptable, and being able to charge at home is more convenient. Pensioners have plenty of time so fast charging isn't needed. EVs are more relaxing to drive too. In the future autonomous EVs will be a big hit with old people whose faculties are declining. Right now a lot of them are driving mobility scooters because they can't get a driver's license. And to be fair, mobility scooters are also a type of EV!
 
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