Global warming discussion IV

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macdoc said:
We did oky with SO2 ...
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A local issue handled locally or regionally so no real equivalence.
... and with the Montreal accord over ozone damaging chemicals despite a similar end of the world clamour from the impacted industries.
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That was on a much smaller scale with few countries that had an economic interest so not much for diplomats to play games with. Refrigerants are a vital part of the modern economy but still a very small part. Fossil fuels, on the other hand, are its basic structure on which all else hangs. With only slight exaggeration. Vast amounts of money are at stake, every nation has its interests, every government has its interested citizens, diplomats couldn't ask for a game with more pieces to play with. And there's no need to deny there's a problem - diplomats love problems. Where would they be without problems? At home is where, not in Paris, Bali or Cancun on expenses.

This is why Paris is so important. If nothing radical comes of it - and I mean important stuff to actually be done by 2025 - then things will take an ugly path.
 
It can fund a more rapid shift to carbon neutral and send a warning shot to irresponsible multi-nationals.

A local issue handled locally or regionally so no real equivalence.
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SO2 abatement and monitoring continues worldwide and was both a European and North American effort with a major benefit to fresh water lakes.
That it then ushered in the AGW it was hiding may, in the long run be a beneift cuz in the 90s after the SO2 clean up....people started to notice AGW on a sharp rise.

CFC Protocol provided a framework of cooperation and it worked....consensus is it held back and continues to hold back about 10 years of warming. That is significant, both the nature of the agreement and the outcome.

What many do not realize is just how bad it could have been without that agreement. The skyrocketing cost of skin cancer in Australia is just a hint of the damage to humans, animals and crops had that gone unchecked.
It still remains an issue even with some of the replacement chemicals.

Catastrophies that don't occur because of prompt action get too little attention. 3 Mile Island worked....a reality overlooked by the anti-nuke idjits.

Just reading about the Panama Canal and an untold tale is the eradication of yellow fever in the canal zone.
The doctor in charge was so zealous that a single mosquito in a house was reported and immediately a capture squad was sent out to capture and analyse it. This is the kind of focus needed to get this planet to a hydro-carbon reduced state. It needs both top down and bottom up attention.

Obama at least recognises the risk as do most nations now and recognizes coal as the prime target for reduction and has results in closing coal plants, eliminating or delaying new coal plants.
With both the US and China on side on that and glimmers from India I think coal has a short horizon in the emitter regions that matter.

Other fossil fuels have a much longer horizon tho dirty oil may also have a short future.
Between moral suasion, reduction of investment and more efficient fleets plus a current abundance of natural gas - the marginal oil fields may prove poor investments.
 
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CapelDodger said:
...I don't think much would have been shaved off this if there hadn't been a denialist effort. We're simply not set up, institutionally, to handle something like AGW, nor set up constitutonally, as humans, to fully appreciate such threats.
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I don't think it is a "human" issue so much as it is a societal/economic issue, particularly bad are the crony capitalism varieties, though there are many other types that that aren't much better and a few that might actually be worse.

Too bad we don't have any real examples of Technocracies, Noocracies, or Geniocracies to evaluate in comparison to the typical global mixes,...but this is starting to stray a bit afield of climate science.
 
Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
...I don't think much would have been shaved off this if there hadn't been a denialist effort.
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Reagan and in Canada Mulroney were enviromentalists....and right wing.
Koch and Co and Fox News shifted the meme purposefully.

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Off topic ??
Ya think.....management seems to have it on ignore.

How's this...something very needed....visual of CO2 release. Watch the video.

http://www.wired.com/2015/08/major-architecture-firm-taking-kickstarter/
 
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Trakar said:
I don't think it is a "human" issue so much as it is a societal/economic issue ...
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There's no real difference for Homo Economicus.

...but this is starting to stray a bit afield of climate science.
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Indeed. Conversation does tend to wander while we're waiting on events. One such being Arctic sea-ice minimum, which is only a month or so away.
 
macdoc said:
Reagan and in Canada Mulroney were enviromentalists....and right wing.
Koch and Co and Fox News shifted the meme purposefully.

••

Off topic ??
Ya think.....management seems to have it on ignore.

How's this...something very needed....visual of CO2 release. Watch the video.

http://www.wired.com/2015/08/major-architecture-firm-taking-kickstarter/
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How about simply requiring counters on every major fossil fuel burning device that displays how many tons of fossil carbon it has emitted during the course of its operation? It'd be inaccurate and almost entirely symbolic but it would likely serve the goal much better than a trash power-plant/incinerator with a remote manmade ski slope puffing steam rings that no one is counting or much caring about.
 
The Atheist said:
See below.



What I see shows 18% denial: http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slat...hows_americans_believe_in_global_warming.html
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From the article you linked
The new data also show that a majority of U.S. counties remain unconvinced that global warming is caused “mostly by human activities.” Majorities in a whopping 2,717 of 3,143 counties (nearly 80 percent) disagree with that sentiment,
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and
The new polling data show Americans seem unconvinced by scientists in general, with majorities of 3,061 of 3,143 counties (more than 97 percent, including Mendocino County, California, and Bergen County, New Jersey) disagreeing with the statement that “most scientists think global warming is happening.” In fact, 97 percent of climate scientists believe climate change is real.
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While it’s nice that most Americans now accept that global warming is happening, denial of its cause, it’s scope and the science itself is disturbingly pervasive.
 
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I often attempted to get friends to join me to take action against climate change and in the majority of situations the climate change denial lies would surface and prevent anything meaningful from happening.

One friend that lives in the Maldives started parroting the Fox News climate science denial that was on at that time. As the Maldives start going underwater my friend is going to have to acknowledge that fact that sea level rise is a reality. He may lose a lot of money as his property becomes valueless. He is not going to be happy about the lies that he was fed.

When I tired to advise my niece to look into what type of future any child that she had might have my sister in law sent me the 2009 lies put forth by Christopher Moncton in St. Paul, Minnesota.

Climate deniers such as Judith Curry and Christopher Moncton have been called upon to testify before congress which spreads ******** climate change denial at the highest levels of government.

The polls that show as you say that 80% of people are not deniers clearly indicate that too large a percentage of the American public does not have a proper understanding of the threat of climate change. Many Americans have been misled by the climate denial apparatus.

Have you heard of Climategate? You will be hard pressed to convince many people on this forum that the climate change denial entities handling of Climategate did not mislead many people about the real threat of climate change.

You say that the Koch brothers have damaged their reputation but there are a lot of people that likely easily understand the ramifications of climate science deniers spending $889 million on the next election to get a climate denier elected president.

Olivine, peridotite, calcium hydroxide, lithium hydroxide, biochar and liquid lye all capture CO2. To conclude that no solution to climate change could have possibly been discovered if America was properly informed and politically motivated to seek solutions is not an opinion I share.

What I was stating originally was that when the world is in complete upheaval and becoming unlivable in the future, and unreasonable people realize that their children will suffer a horrific life and possibly extinction due to climate change, they are going to want to find out why little action was taken to prevent this. When they learn that a massive climate denial network was set up to mislead the public and that climate change deniers were spreading lies they are likely not going to be happy about it. Unreasonable people are very likely to do unreasonable things and go after that climate change deniers that were spreading misinformation.

You may not believe this.
 
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I think you are over stating the case in the last bit, we are pernicious adaptible creatures and it's not just the climate that is the problem but other unsustainable practices.

The reality is that even 100 years out it will be a very different place and 1,000 years pretty much hard to recognise given so many cities will have to move or drown.

That is still not an end of civilization scenario.

Deniers impacted humanity both in the case of CFC ( that really truly was a close call ) and SO2 which was devastating forests and fresh water lakes.
Tobacco continues to kill on a regular basis tho their culpability is out in the open now.

We sort of have moved on to the latest and very pervasive threat which is rather rapid climate change and the emerging consensus that ocean level is rising faster than anticipated.

The horse has left the barn....CFCs and SO2 we caught in time and while there is some residual impact.....it's not the same as CO2.

Indeed active CO2 removal remains a faint hope clause in all this and actively being pursued tho not on a Manhattan Project scale as it could and perhaps should be.
 
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Haig said:
I was convinced that CAGW was a real threat since the 1980's. My belief began to waiver after looking into the Climatgate revelations.

[snip]

It's not us it's the Sun.
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Look what happened to Haig. Imagine when Haig finally has to accept the truth about climate change and he realizes what a complete $%*% he has made of himself on this forum for years, becoming so delusional about climate science that he makes false claims and then he posts articles that clearly refute what he says.

There is not one single academy of science anywhere in the world that Haig can find that will agree with his views on climate change and yet he presses on because he was fooled in part by Climategate. Even though seven independent studies found that there was no wrong doing Haig soldiers on, posting complete nonsense, unaware of how completely disconnected with reality that his ideas are. He has been successfully pimped by the climate denial construct as he believes the Climategate lies, and now part of his life is reduced to wasting his time attempting to spread lies and misinformation.
 
WOW! what a farce this thread is :dl:

Tuesday Tantrums, I get hate mail
"If you replace the words “denier” and “deniers” (I think those are the only two) with “warmists” the guy isn’t far from the truth." :D


Piers Corbyn on the Myth of Man-Made Global Warming
The key to understanding so-called climate change is the electromagnetic connection between Earth and the Sun. One of the most powerful of these voices is Piers Corbyn, who has received international acclaim for the accuracy of his long-range forecasts. Although we hear daily of a scientific consensus to the contrary, what does Piers make of mankind's alleged role in affecting the climate on Earth?
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An archive version of Watts's whimpering can be found at the excellent HowWhopper

What astounds Anthony Watts: that anyone other than he would send "hate mail"
http://blog.hotwhopper.com/2015/08/what-astounds-anthony-watts-that-anyone.html

Anthony Watts, owner of the climate conspiracy blog WUWT, doesn't get much mail from people who like science. I doubt he gets too many from researchers at universities, for example. Over the past few weeks he's posted a couple of emails and comments that he calls "hate mail". (Never mind that Anthony himself sends hate mail.) He was going to do it more often, but he probably doesn't get enough to make an article worthwhile. This latest one he's posted (archived here) is very mild. It's asking Anthony how he sleeps at night. If that's the worst he gets, then he gets off very lightly, compared to climate scientists.
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Something I've long noticed about deniers is how whiney most of them are. Even some of his own commenters pick Watts up on it. Generally, though, they just whine along with him.
 
Haig, do you think there is active conspiracy going on, involving all these scientific organizations in all these countries, OR do you think the consensus view of warming is so entrenched that a "bubble" exists that rejects anything that goes against the consensus view (similar to the struggles germ theory proponents went through)?
 
Haig said:
WOW! what a farce this thread is
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How farcical to link to a climate change denier (Watts) and a deluded crank's video (Corbyn), Haig!
Watts allows obvious climate liars such as Monckton to post on his web site.

Corbyn spoke at a Electric Universe conference. The Electric Universe is based on Velikovsky's fantasies about myths describing astronomical events that lead to dumb ideas such as Venus was ejected from Jupiter because there is a myth stating that! The video is part of the Thunderbolts Project. Thunderbolts are basically a neo-Velikovskian cult lead by David Talbott and Wal Thornhill who have added another layer of delusion, e.g. Saturn used to be over the north pole since Egyptian myths have Saturn in the north; the Grand Canyon was created by electrical discharges; comets are rocks; and what is relevant to this thread - an obsession with the Sun creating global warming.
We have
  • The delusion that CO2 does not drive climate.
    A thing called the greenhouse effect exists - CO2 is a climate driver!
  • A "historically warming oceans releases CO2" debunks current CO2 level fantasy.
  • A lie about "no actual evidence for the CO2 theory".
  • The "we contribute only a tiny amount of CO2" climate myth.
  • Ignorance: no one who knows about climate science should claim that that CO2 controls climate.
    Climate science states that there are many drivers of climate. The main one is the Sun. There is the greenhouse gases including CO2. There are volcanoes. etc.
  • Advertising his crank "forecasts".
  • AGW consensus exists "because of funding" paranoia.
  • Governments promote AGW because of "tax purposes"!
  • Climategate stupidity. Actually accuses scientists of fraud!
  • The urban heating myth that has been debunked, e.g. by the BEST project.
  • Ignorance about what climate is- it is not trends over 10 years, it is trends over 30 years.
  • Ignorance about GISS data.
    GISS Surface Temperature Analysis (GISTEMP) is from surface stations.
  • What looks like a lie that GISS shows temperatures falling between 2002 and 2012.
    Wood for Trees has a slight warming trend for those years. I suspect that Corbyn actually plotted RSS data.
  • Vague (and paranoid!) excuses about why satellite data is more reliable than ground stations.
  • The delusion that a cycle in solar output that affects climate is evidence for the change in the magnetic field every ~11 years affecting climate.
  • More fantasies about cycles and magnetic connections.

Those links actually need a :dl: !
 
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Fudbucker said:
Haig, do you think there is active conspiracy going on, involving all these scientific organizations in all these countries, OR do you think the consensus view of warming is so entrenched that a "bubble" exists that rejects anything that goes against the consensus view (similar to the struggles germ theory proponents went through)?
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both require conspiracy, one is active the other is tradition.
 
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