Global warming discussion III

Status
Not open for further replies.
Haig: The human fingerprint in global warming

Have you ever considered greybeard he who pays the piper calls the tune?
Have you ever considered the paranoia behind the idea that scientists fake their results because some "piper" pays them to, Haig :p?

I haven't seen any convincing evidence that climate change caused by human activities is significant when compared to natural causes. Can you show proof that it IS?
The convincing evidence that it is not the Sun has been pointed out to you many times:
Haig (24 July 2014): It is not the Sun, Maunder Minimum will not stop GW!

The convincing evidence that climate change is caused by human activities is everywhere - not that you could be convinced given the continuing denial of climate science about the Sun from you, Haig :jaw-dropp!
Not that this matters because 97% of climate scientists have been convinced by the evidence that climate change is caused by human activities and they know a little more than you or me.

This sounds like the "It is not us" climate myth that pops up from people who are ignorant about The human fingerprint in global warming
Fundamental physics and global climate models both make testable predictions as to how the global climate should change in response to anthropogenic warming. Almost universally, empirical observations confirm that these 'fingerprints' of anthropogenic global warming are present.
 
Last edited:
A statistical stasis from 1995 to 2014 (19 yrs) is being described as a Pause (or Hiatus if you prefer)

There is no compelling evidence recognized by mainstream climate science which supports this assertion that I am aware of. Please cite and reference the journal and paper in which lists and explains this evidence.

Prof Philip Jones (UEA – CRU) was reported as saying this about the Pause, "there has been no statistically significant warming since 1995" despite a 7% increase in CO2 concentrations in that period.

Please cite and reference the journal and paper in which this researcher confirms your assertion.
(BTW the last time I saw this particularly wrong specific claim was a little over four years ago, took me a bit to remember where, but it wasn't too hard to locate - http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2010/apr/14/sun-blamed-for-europes-colder-winters
reader response #14 Rod Eaton, Apr 16, 2010 9:31 AM
As, according to Prof Philip Jones (UEA – CRU), there has been no statistically significant warming since 1995, despite a 7% increase in CO2 concentrations in that period, one really has to consider that the scaremongering of dangerous warming from human causation (as promoted by non-scientists such as Al Gore) may well be more of an ‘urban legend’ than ‘a scientific fact.’



There are many papers on the Pause / Hiatus ... here is one that defines it this way ...

the annual-mean global temperature has not risen in the twenty-first century

This paper does not confirm or support your assertion. In fact, its claims and evidences refute your claims; please provide cite/reference to journal and paper(s) that support your assertions.

Your reference talks about these two researchers efforts to create a climate model looking at variable related to the southern pacific ocean called POGA (Pacific Ocean-Global Atmosphere) that accurate reflects some of the hindcast characteristics observed over the period starting in the 1970s running to 2012.
First, they take their model and plug in the historic and understood variable value data, locked the rates at the 1990 reference point and let this model run, labeling it their Historic (HIST) model. Next they took the observed and measured data points over the same time frame and found that during the period between 1998 and 2010, there was a distinct difference between what their historic model predicts and what the actual measured data points represent. They began tweaking their model with a series of changes and adjustments until they ran across a model variant that fairly closely followed the actual measured data points reflected.

Their results were interesting and are actually fairly closely tied to two other papers I recently mentioned (within the last two days). But neither their research, nor their evidence supports your conclusions or assertions, nor even you definition.

Even though they are speaking primarily about what their models demonstrate they do use these terms which clearly indicates a rejection of your general and specific proposals:

A question remains whether the La Niña-like decadal trend is internal or forced. We note the following facts: i) The tropical Pacific features pronounced low-frequency SST variability (Extended Data Fig. 7), so large that the pattern of modest forced response has yet emerged from observations (Fig. 1b). ii) All the climate models project a tropical Pacific warming in response to increased greenhouse gas concentrations. We conclude that the recent cooling of the tropical Pacific and hence the current hiatus are likely due to natural internal variability rather than a forced response. As such, the hiatus is temporary, and global warming will return when the tropical Pacific swings back to a warm state. Similar hiatus events may occur in the future and are difficult to predict at multi-year leads due to limited predictability of tropical Pacific SST. We showed that when taking place, such events are accompanied by characteristic regional patterns including an intensified Walker circulation, weakened Aleutian low and
prolonged droughts in the southern US.

While radiative-forced response will become increasingly important, deviations
from the forced response are substantial at any given time, especially on regional scales. Quantitative tools like our POGA-H are crucial to attribute the causes of regional climate anomalies. The current hiatus illustrates the global influence of tropical Pacific SST, and a dependency of climate sensitivity on the spatial pattern of tropical ocean warming, which itself is uncertain in observations and among models. This highlights the need to develop predictive pattern dynamics constrained by observations.

I await your support and explanations
 
Last edited:

Actually, what the paper concludes is:
...During the past 100 years, solar activities display a clear increasing tendency that corresponds to the global warming of the Earth (including land and ocean) very well. Particularly, the ocean temperature has a slightly higher correlation to solar activity than the land temperature. All these demonstrate that solar activity has a non-negligible forcing on the temperature change of the Earth on the time scale of centuries.

perfectly in accord with mainstream climate science which says that prior to about mid 20th century the Sun was a, if not the, primary variable forcing factor in climate change on Earth. Since the middle of last century, solar forcing has dropped to around the 20% influence level. For last century, the sun's overall climate influence was somewhere around 35% which is certainly "non-negligible."
 
You need to read post #322 too, Trakar. :)

These referenced newspaper articles discussing public press statements and comments which do not constitute supporting scientific evidence, and which he (or the people he copied from) has(have) distorted and removed from the proper context of their original presentation. Most importantly, they still do not confirm or compellingly support Haig's thesis contentions. (e.g. Sun as only dominant climate forcing agency, an already initiated long climate cooling period, etc.,)

I continue to await the citation and reference for Haig's presentation of compelling supportive scientific papers and evidences, as well as an explanation of why he is quoting in near verbatim the arguments and expressions from 4 year old Physorg news article comment section posters as though they are his own new and original responses to discussions going on here and now?

These sound eerily identical to recent posts
http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2010/apr/14/sun-blamed-for-europes-colder-winters
Solar & Other Natural Climate Influences

It is interesting, and perhaps disturbing that anything, however, sound which is not in line with the AGW hypothesis carries a caveat (e.g. notwithstanding [man-made] global warming). This is ironically still the case when COOLING is predicted.

Science is running scared of the truth. Clearly, solar activities have such an effect as to provide the extreme weather conditions cited by this article. After all climate is only long term accumulated weather data.

Hence, it would seem that the power of the Sun has been underestimated and, along with all the other natural changes (e.g. El Nino tectonics and multi decadal oscillations) there may be little of the very modest 0.6 deg C temperature rise of the 20th century attributable to human emissions.

and statistical stasis from 1995 to 2010 (15 yrs)
which seems unusually identical to:
A statistical stasis from 1995 to 2014 (19 yrs) is being described as a Pause (or Hiatus if you prefer)

link back to other peculiar twinning of words and form instance
 
Last edited:
The last three months have been the hottest April, May, and June on record. July will be tougher, as a previous July still holds the record for hottest month ever. I wonder where this year's will place.

Also, this year, with a quarter of it being the hottest quarter. But with this more than half over, I suppose 2015 will be the year to predict for. I will make this post as an official prediction that 2015 will be the new hottest year.
 
The last three months have been the hottest April, May, and June on record. July will be tougher, as a previous July still holds the record for hottest month ever. I wonder where this year's will place.

Also, this year, with a quarter of it being the hottest quarter. But with this more than half over, I suppose 2015 will be the year to predict for. I will make this post as an official prediction that 2015 will be the new hottest year.

the record is 120 years out of 4 1/2 billion years of the planet earth - and thay impresses folk? nonsense.
 
The last three months have been the hottest April, May, and June on record. July will be tougher, as a previous July still holds the record for hottest month ever. I wonder where this year's will place.

Also, this year, with a quarter of it being the hottest quarter. But with this more than half over, I suppose 2015 will be the year to predict for. I will make this post as an official prediction that 2015 will be the new hottest year.

the record is 120 years out of 4 1/2 billion years of the planet earth - and that impresses folk? nonsense.
 
the record is 120 years out of 4 1/2 billion years of the planet earth - and thay impresses folk? nonsense.

the record is 120 years out of 4 1/2 billion years of the planet earth - and that impresses folk? nonsense.


Care to expand upon and explain your position with regard to mainstream climate science understandings. Please provide citation and references to the compelling scientific evidence that supports this position.
 
The last three months have been the hottest April, May, and June on record. July will be tougher, as a previous July still holds the record for hottest month ever. I wonder where this year's will place.

Also, this year, with a quarter of it being the hottest quarter. But with this more than half over, I suppose 2015 will be the year to predict for. I will make this post as an official prediction that 2015 will be the new hottest year.

It would be unwise to base an estimate of next year's annual average global temperature upon a single 3-month period from the year before. That said there are more than enough indicators to believe that new historic record annual high temperature global averages will continue in the trend of the last several decades and continue to rise.

From the World Meteorological Organization - http://www.wmo.int/pages/mediacentre/press_releases/pr_981_en.html

Geneva, 13 November 2013 - The year 2013 is currently on course to be among the top ten warmest years since modern records began in 1850, according to the World Meteorological Organization. The first nine months, January to September, tied with 2003 as the seventh warmest such period on record, with a global land and ocean surface temperature of about 0.48 C (0.86 F) above the 1961�1990 average...
http://www.wmo.int/pages/mediacentr...nts/ProvisionalStatementStatusClimate2013.pdf

From EPA
http://www.epa.gov/climate/climatechange/science/indicators/weather-climate/index.html
Summary of Key Points
•U.S. and Global Temperature. Average temperatures have risen across the contiguous 48 states since 1901, with an increased rate of warming over the past 30 years. Seven of the top 10 warmest years on record have occurred since 1998. Average global temperatures show a similar trend, and the top 10 warmest years on record worldwide have all occurred since 1998. Within the United States, temperatures in parts of the North, the West, and Alaska have increased the most...

From NASA
http://www.giss.nasa.gov/research/news/20140121/
NASA Finds 2013 Sustained Long-Term Climate Warming Trend

Posted Jan. 21, 2014

NASA scientists say 2013 tied with 2009 and 2006 for the seventh warmest year since 1880, continuing a long-term trend of rising global temperatures.

With the exception of 1998, the 10 warmest years in the 134-year record all have occurred since 2000, with 2010 and 2005 ranking as the warmest years on record...

As for where 2014 currently sits with a bit over half the year gone, according to NOAA:
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/sotc/global/

...•The combined global land and ocean average surface temperature for the January–June period (year-to-date) was 0.67°C (1.21°F) above the 20th century average of 13.5°C (56.3°F), tying with 2002 as the third warmest such period on record...

The combined average temperature across global land and ocean surfaces for June 2014 was record high for the month, at 0.72°C (1.30°F) above the 20th century average. This surpasses the previous record, set in June 1998, by 0.03°C (0.05°F). Nine of the ten warmest Junes on record have occurred during the 21st century, including each of the past five years. June 2014 also marks the second consecutive month with record high global temperatures. With the exception of February (21st warmest), every month to date in 2014 has ranked among the four warmest for its respective month. Additionally, June 2014 marked the 38th consecutive June and 352nd consecutive month with a global temperature above the 20th century average. The last below-average global temperature for June was June 1976 and the last below-average global temperature for any month was February 1985...
 
Last edited:
I will make this post as an official prediction that 2015 will be the new hottest year.
I'm not so bold as to make a prediction where ENSO is concerned, and it's looking a bit odd out there at the moment. It's not beyond the bounds that we might see what happened in 2010-11, with a return to La Nina next year. At which point that would start to look like a forced behaviour, but we'll cross that bridge if it comes.

La Nina wouldn't mean a particularly cold year; 2011 was the warmest La Nina year yet and there'll be four years of AGW to add. It wouldn't save the mythical Pause anyway since that has to remain anchored on 1998.

I'll just sit this one out and watch.
 
In 200 years we've done what the planet never managed in its existence, so yes, I'm impressed.
well some are more easily impressed than others, particularly when there is a huge pause currently in the minimal 120 year record. :D:D:D We have had warm periods in the past, far exceeding, anything that exsists now so I wouldn't get too hyped up about it, what exactly did the planet manage to do? personally, I am impressed with 100,000 years of ongoing volcanoes. melting snowball earth ain't chopped liver either.
 
Last edited:
well some are more easily impressed than others, particularly when there is a huge pause currently in the minimal 120 year record. :D:D:D We have had warm periods in the past, far exceeding, anything that exsists now so I wouldn't get too hyped up about it, what exactly did the planet manage to do? personally, I am impressed with 100,000 years of ongoing volcanoes. melting snowball earth ain't chopped liver either.

There are many ways that nature can and has killed most of the species on the planet, and there are many ways that nature could greatly damage or destroy our civilization, but it takes a real special talent to do such ourselves, to ourselves. Nuclear weapons would certainly be faster but AGW is a more certain (and ironic) epitaph for the wise, wise men.

Oh, and how do you define "pause" and what compelling evidence do you have in support of the existence of this pause?

Just for clarification, the top two hottest years in the modern record global occurred in 2010 (1rst place) and 2005 (2nd place) according to NOAA:

picture.php


http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/sotc/global/2013/13
 
Last edited:
There are many ways that nature can and has killed most of the species on the planet, and there are many ways that nature could greatly damage or destroy our civilization, but it takes a real special talent to do such ourselves, to ourselves. Nuclear weapons would certainly be faster but AGW is a more certain (and ironic) epitaph for the wise, wise men.

Oh, and how do you define "pause" and what compelling evidence do you have in support of the existence of this pause?

Just for clarification, the top two hottest years in the modern record global occurred in 2010 (1rst place) and 2005 (2nd place) according to NOAA:

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=197&pictureid=8963[/qimg]

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/sotc/global/2013/13

record from noaa started 1880 which is nothing in this 4 1/2 billion year old planet.
 
The fact that climate has changed naturally in the past infers nothing about human caused effects now. Understanding previous changes helps us to understand and quantify some of the feedback effects. Your strawman is not a discussion of science, but an attempt to confuse the debate.
 
The fact that climate has changed naturally in the past infers nothing about human caused effects now. Understanding previous changes helps us to understand and quantify some of the feedback effects. Your strawman is not a discussion of science, but an attempt to confuse the debate.


not so. that 140 year old record is not even a blink in thr 4 1/2 bllion year old planet earth. what say you about a record that started in 1880. or as olde phil jones and mann noted "hide the decline' and no reason for the pause.
 
Last edited:
particularly when there is a huge pause currently in the minimal 120 year record.

What pause would that be ....the one in your learning curve??

heat_content2000m.png


or are you just regurgitating Faux news sound bites??

Tell us ..

Does CO2 trap IR?
This is a science form - you are expected to have some basic knowledge to comment intelligently.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom