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Global warming discussion III

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http://lasp.colorado.edu/data/sorce/tsi_data/daily/sorce_tsi_L3_c24h_latest.txt

"The SORCE Total Irradiance Monitor (TIM) measures the total solar
; irradiance (TSI), a measure of the absolute intensity of solar radiation
; integrated over the entire solar disk and the entire solar spectrum.
; The SORCE Level 3 TSI data products are the daily and 6-hourly mean
; irradiances, reported at both a mean solar distance of 1 astronomical
; unit (AU) and at the true Earth-to-Sun distance of date, and zero
; relative line-of-sight velocity with respect to the Sun. These products
; respectively indicate emitted solar radiation variability (useful for
; solar studies) and the solar energy input to the top of the Earth's
; atmosphere (useful for Earth climate studies)."

not only one definition.
 
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I can assure you they don't call it that way in any formal settings. In informal settings they can perfectly call it TSI as the intention behind the measurement sometimes mixes with the variable used to measure it. The same way I have no problems using density and specific weight interchangeably when the intention, location and unit system are obvious.

the scientific literature shows you wrong.
 
http://lasp.colorado.edu/data/sorce/tsi_data/daily/sorce_tsi_L3_c24h_latest.txt

"The SORCE Total Irradiance Monitor (TIM) measures the total solar
; irradiance (TSI), a measure of the absolute intensity of solar radiation
; integrated over the entire solar disk and the entire solar spectrum.
; The SORCE Level 3 TSI data products are the daily and 6-hourly mean
; irradiances, reported at both a mean solar distance of 1 astronomical
; unit (AU) and at the true Earth-to-Sun distance of date, and zero
; relative line-of-sight velocity with respect to the Sun. These products
; respectively indicate emitted solar radiation variability (useful for
; solar studies) and the solar energy input to the top of the Earth's
; atmosphere (useful for Earth climate studies)."

not only one definition.

And what's the difference besides the specifics of SORCE? In fact that definition shows clearly why you and Haig are wrong. Not that I hope you are going to detect it, least to admit it.
 
i don't know if they can, but they certainly do. and there seems to be no official document signed by the founders. so it seems to be a bit of a debate, the guy from Sea shepherd also Claims to be a co founder and Greenpeace disputing that.

but it actually doesn't matter. Moore was surely a very early member. but also that changes absolutely nothing about how extremely wrong he is today with his Claims about AGW.

This may be of interest to you DC. Breaking news.

A letter from 1971 shows Patrick Moore applying to take part in a Greenpeace trip and protest against nuclear testing in the Arctic ocean. A response from one of the actual co-founders of Greenpeace, Paul Cotes, on Greenpeace letterhead no less, acknowledges receipt of Moore's interest in taking part in Greenpeace activity.

How the heck can someone apply to be part of an organization that is already founded and then claim later to have been a founder?

http://desmogblog.com/2014/07/12/greenpeace-co-founder-patrick-moore-not-co-founder-all

ETA Of course it doesn't really matter whether he was a founder member or not, but if it didn't matter to some people then they wouldn't make these claims. The reason they do is that it sounds good in a headline like for instance this one from Daily Mail "Humans are NOT to blame for global warming, says Greenpeace co-founder, as he insists there is 'no scientific proof' climate change is manmade".
 
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the scientific literature shows you wrong.

Quote three examples of real scientific literature doing that.

You easily felt in the trap Haig put and now you are twisting TSI1UA into TSI just for ... pride? because for that there's no intellectual reason detectable there.

Again. Your figures don't show TSI nor illustrate how the planet and its climate work. Your figures illustrate a different thing and show a very partial aspect of how the sun works having a relative incidence in how the climate works. That incidence is in about a tenth of the magnitude of what Haig is trying to sell.
 
Total Solar Irradiance has one sole definition: the amount of the total radiative energy spectra -as wide as it can possibly be- the Earth gets from the Sun at the top of Earth's atmosphere. It's measured 645 km above the Earth's surface and estimated perpendicularly the sun-earth axis. Its units are [any unit of energy]/[any unit of length]^2.
Thank you.

And now I'm asking you ...
And this is the sound of me not answering you.
 
Quote three examples of real scientific literature doing that.

You easily felt in the trap Haig put and now you are twisting TSI1UA into TSI just for ... pride? because for that there's no intellectual reason detectable there.

Again. Your figures don't show TSI nor illustrate how the planet and its climate work. Your figures illustrate a different thing and show a very partial aspect of how the sun works having a relative incidence in how the climate works. That incidence is in about a tenth of the magnitude of what Haig is trying to sell.

A series of satellite total solar irradiance (TSI) observations can be combined in a precise solar magnetic cycle length composite TSI database by determining the relationship between two non-overlapping components: ACRIM1 and ACRIM2

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2002GL016038/full

The most accurate value of total solar irradiance during the 2008 solar minimum period is 1360.8 ± 0.5 W m−2 according to measurements from the Total Irradiance Monitor (TIM) on NASA's Solar Radiation and Climate Experiment (SORCE) and a series of new radiometric laboratory tests. This value is significantly lower than the canonical value of 1365.4 ± 1.3 W m−2 established in the 1990s, which energy balance calculations and climate models currently use.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2010GL045777/full
With the advent of space-based total solar irradiance (TSI) observations about 35 years ago, researchers’ understanding of solar variability and its causes has greatly improved. Controversies regarding the cross-calibration of the data from various TSI instruments have resulted in many different TSI composite time series.

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10712-014-9294-y
 
Figure 1 proves you wrong. Let me see the rest and the other papers.

what the heck are you talking about?

this is the paper from Wilson, those are the measurements he combined to get the composite dataset. its labeled Total Solar Irradiance and is TSI at 1 AU.

and in the very same paper you find the same figure Haig posted, and its labeled TSI.....

as i said, they call it TSI in the scientific literature, and i am fine with it. you have objections, take it up with the scientific community, not with me.
 
Exactly! Do you have any problem understanding that?

both are called TSI.....

this is so laughable.

Haig hotlinked to a graph from NASA (on a NASA server), its labeled TSI. you have a problem with it, take it up with NASA, i have no problem with it.

bye bye
 
both are called TSI.....

this is so laughable.

Haig hotlinked to a graph from NASA (on a NASA server), its labeled TSI. you have a problem with it, take it up with NASA, i have no problem with it.

bye bye

"Both are labelled John Paul so they must be the same pope!". And you speak of "laughable". Using "NASA" as a shield doesn't excuse you for not understanding what you read.

Leave if you want, but you don't understand at all what 1AU is nor that TSI and TSI1UA are different things. If you understood what 1AU is and the reality or not of that you'd understand immediately what are those figures intended for.
 
almost everywhere you look up TSI, they give TSI @ 1 AU and not TSI true earth. because mostly people are interested if the sun's output changes, and not how much of the sun's output we "catch" at the moment

ETA: and i take NASA's word above any forum poster's assurance
 
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aleCcowaN: Cant you just explain the problem with those figures and graphs and just show us the correct ones?

Of course, now that finally DC has seen a small beam of sunlight, and Haig won't reply about the subject.

The Total Solar Irradiance is the value of the energy density got from the sun as electromagnetic waves in the full spectrum at the top of the atmosphere, that is, before anything in the Earth can absorb or reflect it. The value in this very moment is about 1316 W/m2, several days past of the year's minimum value. Now the value is going up and it'll reach a maximum of 1408 W/m2 around next January 2nd or so. Why is that? Because the Earth's orbit is elliptic, as Kepler found four centuries ago.

This is the energy the Earth gets from the Sun, and that energy varies wildly around the year, so the Earth temperatures should vary consequently if "the Sun is the cause of the Earth climate and finally the cause of global warming". Well, indeed they vary. In January the planet had an average temperature of 12.7°C while this July is going to have an average temperature between 15.9 and 16.5°C.

So, with little radiation the Earth is warm, with lots of solar radiation the Earth is cool. Why is that? Because of the planet's configuration. The present orbital characteristics make the Southern Hemisphere which is mainly oceans to face the Sun when it its close to the Earth. The Northern Hemisphere, which is about half land and half ocean and in better conditions to be warmed faces the Sun when the whole planet it is its farthest positions.

This gives real sense about how the climate works and how global warming develops. Basically the planet reach different conditions because in the absence of AGW it pretty much loses every day the same energy it gains that day. Everyone knows that, the day is hot, the night is cold; if you are in a dry land far from the sea the daily temperature varies a lot; if you are in a wet location and close to the sea the temperature varies a little.

Greenhouse gasses in excess alter the equation and make some of the thermal energy to remain in the Earth most of the days. Anyway the planet reaches a daily states a loses most of the energy it gets from the Sun. That bit that remains may melt ice but mainly is stored in the oceans. As the oceans have a humongous thermal capacity the daily difference is almost imperceptible, but the climate changes slowly.

Scientists are aware the planet works that way but they want to know if the Sun itself can affect the process so they have to create a value to compare the Sun today with the Sun yesterday and not the TSI that changes as the Earth comes closer and moves away from the Sun as its elliptic orbit dictates. So scientists create an abstract value called Total Solar Irradiance at One Astronomical Unit, that is, the value the real TSI would have if the Earth had a circular orbit with a radius equal to the average real distance from the Earth to the Sun. This value allows them to study what subtle changes may experience the Sun alone without adding it to the bulk of the climate process.

That generates the kind of figures DC was discussing with Haig. The conclusion is, roughly, the total energy varies so little that it hasn't almost consequences to the planet. It may cause the global temperature to go up 0.1°C at peak of cycle and down -0.1°C when the Sun "calms down" but basically it's cyclical. You have to know it, because you may think the planet is warming madly the years the Sun becomes more active or, on the contrary, you may think the temperature is levelled when the Sun really is becoming less active. But there's other influence that is more important: even though the total energy varies little, the high frequency fraction varies a lot. How much is a lot? It may be the double, for instance. This high frequency fraction, basically short ultra-violet rays never reach the surface but they affect the chemistry in the upper atmosphere. They generate daily more ozone -and much of that ozone degrades daily-. Ozone is also a greenhouse gas, but formed in the highest atmosphere it has influences that are to be carefully studied.

This is basically the state of the question.

Denialists have many treats. The main one is never understanding how the planet works and taking the TSI1UA figure -or better, the 10.7 cm figure- they look for correlations with different temperature sets with the only goal of showing "it must be the Sun". To counterbalance these stupid denialist notions we have to show basically how the planet works. Accepting the TSI1UA figure as the real TSI of the planet is letting the denialists to choose the field to deploy their trickeries. A hell of a mistake.

And what happens with all those papers? Well, when everybody knows what they are talking about, they use TSI as short for TSI1UA, and that's it. Nobody is mixing up what is happening to the Earth and what is happening to the Sun. When a denialist takes those figures and tells "the sun behaves this way so the earth experiences this or that" basically the denialist is talking bull. When somebody tries to counterbalance this from the very figures this shows the person's poor judgement by not understanding both how the climate works and how debate works.
 
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