Global warming discussion III

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If you think that those were funny, try this one (from http://www.galileomovement.com.au/science_futility.php#A):

I'm surprised the dead body of Galileo hasn't, through sheer force of will, reconstituted itself, climbed out of the grave and attacked those who claim his name in this way. The sheer stupidity is mind boggling.

These are the people Australian politicians and business leaders turn to for their information to debunk AGW. They are not just some irrelevant fringe group that is ignored by everyone.
 
Figured hydrology was the first clear infliction of the Anthropocene

2 months of rain in 2 hours

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/13/us-usa-weather-new-york-idUSKBN0GD16020140813


http://www.weather.com/news/commuter-conditions/detroit-flooding-historic-freeways-closed-20140812

In this case 2 months worth in ONE hour
http://www.thespec.com/news-story/4...ington-downpour-sparks-floods-shuts-highways/

and $850 million this one cost..

Toronto’s July flood listed as Ontario’s most costly natural disaster
Insurance Bureau of Canada says property damage caused by storm that swamped the GTA on July 8 is more than $850 million.

http://www.thestar.com/business/2013/08/14/july_flood_ontarios_most_costly_natural_disaster.html

and yet these were just summer thunderstorms...no hurricanes, cyclones or tropical storms....just plain old summer rain storms....

Very, very expensive ones.....but of course little old us can't affect the climate.nah

I'm sure we could compile quite a list starting with the monster in Bombay a few years back which killed a lot of people....

so will this

Storm misses Delhi, Palam at 47.8° breaks all record
Posted, 2014-06-09

Temperature recorded at the Palam observatory broke all records since the establishment of the centre in 1952. Mercury touched 47.8 degrees Celsius in Palam, while Safdarjung seethed at 45.1 degrees Celsius. The real picture of the heat wave is, however, not the extremes, but that between 10 a.m. and 7 p.m. the thermometer did not fall below 43 degrees Celsius in West Delhi. The minimum temperatures of 28.6 and 31.6 degrees Celsius in Safdarjung and Palam, respectively were both above normal. »
http://article.wn.com/view/2014/06/09/Storm_misses_Delhi_Palam_at_478_breaks_all_record/

can you imagine that teeming city at temperatures most of you have never experienced...:boggled:
 
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The vast reservoir of carbon stored in Arctic permafrost is gradually being converted to carbon dioxide (CO2) after entering the freshwater system in a process thought to be controlled largely by microbial activity.
However, a new study – funded by the National Science Foundation and published this week in the journal Science – concludes that sunlight and not bacteria is the key to triggering the production of CO2 from material released by Arctic soils.

more
http://phys.org/news/2014-08-sunlight-microbes-key-co2-arctic.html
 
Does anyone ignore that the oceans need to gather 5 x 1024J (one year worth of solar radiation, including that carried in shortwave that is bounced back into space) to warm 1°C as an average.

Besides, how can that warm "swing back" without contradicting the laws of thermodynamics (that is, how does water which warmed from 4°C to 4.1°C to return in turn as heat at the surface of a planet that averages 15°C)

The current rate or ocean warming is consistent with some ~0.02/0.03°C per decade, which in turn is consistent with some ~0.1°C of warming per decade in T-2ms
 
New study on the role of the AMO on the 'hiatus'. If this bares out god help us when it swings back.
Indeed, if. The lead author, Kai-Kit Tung, is regarded in some circles as being a bit over-eager when it comes to the AMO; no doubt we shall find out soon enough.

Whatever the result it just adjusts the extent to which the Atlantic is involved in recent heat-sequestration. Kai-Kit Tung is suggesting that it's dominant but I'm dubious. Recent studies of climate model runs which matched the recent ENSO trend also matched the surface temperature trend, which seems unlikely to be coincidence.

Perhaps there's a physical linkage between the AMO cycle and the PDO? I can but speculate and hope the professionals come up with an answer to that.
 
Does anyone ignore that the oceans need to gather 5 x 1024J (one year worth of solar radiation, including that carried in shortwave that is bounced back into space) to warm 1°C as an average.

Besides, how can that warm "swing back" without contradicting the laws of thermodynamics (that is, how does water which warmed from 4°C to 4.1°C to return in turn as heat at the surface of a planet that averages 15°C)

The current rate or ocean warming is consistent with some ~0.02/0.03°C per decade, which in turn is consistent with some ~0.1°C of warming per decade in T-2ms
There's no need too leap into the Laws of Thermodynamics to rubbish folks posts. It's equivalent to the deniers leaping to 'dwarfed by natural flows' meme for CO2 effects. My terminology may be lax (I'm not a scientist). My point was that if the study bears up there will be a period when the oscillation swings back to a positive cycle. Given the long term trend is still upwards, effects that depress the energy in the atmosphere for longer periods will suffer from the opposite effect on the positive cycle and compound the underlying trend.

In addition the study was looking at ARGO data, with a resolution of 0.005 deg C (http://www.terrapub.co.jp/journals/JO/pdf/6002/60020253.pdf), so your worries about not being able to account for distributions of energy producing a 0.1 deg C difference don't seem to be a major worry. Also the interface between atmosphere and top-level ocean involves major temperature differences in different locales and at different times. It's only the deeper layers that are a more consistent temperature.
 
There's no need too leap into the Laws of Thermodynamics to rubbish folks posts. It's equivalent to the deniers leaping to 'dwarfed by natural flows' meme for CO2 effects.

Thanks for the textbook non sequitur and failed strawman.

My terminology may be lax (I'm not a scientist). My point was that if the study bears up there will be a period when the oscillation swings back to a positive cycle. Given the long term trend is still upwards, effects that depress the energy in the atmosphere for longer periods will suffer from the opposite effect on the positive cycle and compound the underlying trend.

Yes, that's the way I understood your understanding on the matter. Hence my reply -in my my previous post-. Everyone should focus on the physical basis, in this case, the heat supposedly stops going down then, what happens? I mean, how and why does the system actually react to that heat refusing to go down -supposedly- and not how the ghosts of past warming periods will return as the ghosts of the future ones.

I have to wait 'till next Tuesday to get a hold on the last edition of Science magazine. If you actually have read that article please, can you succinctly explain which depths they exactly found the "missing" heat? I hope most of it is deeper than ~2000 m (actually some 1930m) or the authors should have to explain why that heat was previously unaccounted.

In addition the study was looking at ARGO data, with a resolution of 0.005 deg C (http://www.terrapub.co.jp/journals/JO/pdf/6002/60020253.pdf), so your worries about not being able to account for distributions of energy producing a 0.1 deg C difference don't seem to be a major worry.

You just made up my "worry". The 0.1°C was part of an example laid out more as an extremely simple mental experiment for you and others to reflect on it -or not- and not to be cast into a fantasized worry of mine. And don't mix up the thermometer with the ocean you probe with it. Precise as the instruments are, I spend some 90% of my time trying to provide reasonable error margins to ocean heat content evaluated in the Southern Atlantic in depths that are temporarily part of the ocean mixed layer -to express it in the simplest possible way, though sacrificing accuracy- as a part of a research project I'm involved with -not related to Agulhas, trendy subject, but not totally divorced of it-. If we could have 300 additional buoys deployed in the places we need (or better a thou, why not, one shouldn't be shy to ask the impossible) it would be much easier.

I suspect this recent article doesn't say what comments are telling it says -one piece of blogcrap even takes it as a disprove of global warming-. Ka-kit Tung is serious (I've came across a couple of papers about a similar subject written by him, among others, earlier this year).
 
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the mystic sounding know it all still raging against everyone?
how boring.
 
Alec,

The rest of us appreciate that you are an expert in this subject. My apologies that my terminology is sloppy at times. But you often come across as a pompous ass. A simple one paragraph correction on my comment would have sufficed and I would have learned something useful. But your obtuse language ( I appreciate that English is a second language) and desire to make people think things through from first principles drives some of us to distraction. If you have points to make, please make them clearer.

We can understand that the deep ocean temperatures only increase marginally. But we also know that features such as circulating currents and Kelvin Waves also transport that energy to different regions. Whilst the mean temperature may increase by a decimal point the temperature at different points on the globe may increase or significantly more. The UK is in the enviable position of benefiting from just such flows, generally having warm seas (on the west) and remaining virtually ice-free, unlike locations at comparable (or lower latitudes - having walked on the gulf at Vladivostok!)
 
Alec,

The rest of us appreciate that you are an expert in this subject. My apologies that my terminology is sloppy at times. But you often come across as a pompous ass. A simple one paragraph correction on my comment would have sufficed and I would have learned something useful. But your obtuse language ( I appreciate that English is a second language) and desire to make people think things through from first principles drives some of us to distraction. If you have points to make, please make them clearer.

We can understand that the deep ocean temperatures only increase marginally. But we also know that features such as circulating currents and Kelvin Waves also transport that energy to different regions. Whilst the mean temperature may increase by a decimal point the temperature at different points on the globe may increase or significantly more. The UK is in the enviable position of benefiting from just such flows, generally having warm seas (on the west) and remaining virtually ice-free, unlike locations at comparable (or lower latitudes - having walked on the gulf at Vladivostok!)

What did we learn, if nothing else, from "Office Space"? Engineers aren't good with people. :)
 
Alec,

The rest of us appreciate that you are an expert in this subject. My apologies that my terminology is sloppy at times. But you often come across as a pompous ass. A simple one paragraph correction on my comment would have sufficed and I would have learned something useful. But your obtuse language ( I appreciate that English is a second language) and desire to make people think things through from first principles drives some of us to distraction. If you have points to make, please make them clearer.

I have to say that I will always reply harshly to any hint of suggestion that there are hidden "forces" that would swing back and slap us in our faces through big methane bursts, out-of-control positive feedbacks or temperatures recovering sharply rising trends. My responses in such circumstances are arse-holic by design, so to speak. And I wouldn't take into account who said it: you among them all are, by personal qualities, the one who is not expected at all to deserve such a treatment. But you seemed to have "bought" an extreme version of the speculative conclusions of that paper -that are OK in their own context- so the damage is done.

If common people can't understand how damaging are global temperatures rising 1.5°C during a century, I have to make them understand, and not endorse values of 4°C, or methane bursts, or up-trends swinging back like the climatological version of Final Destination: If denialists have numbed and anaesthetized the big public, it is not my role to give electric shocks to them or to sting them with a stake just because they wouldn't feel a pin. Warmers are as dangerous as denialists.

That was about the style. Now let's discuss the substance:

Of course you deserve a full reply about the paper you talked about. I've read it today and I can say I like it in many points though I have some objections about its departures and a big objection with half of the conclusions. I like it because it moves the focus to the parts of the Southern seas I contribute to study and it criticizes Trenberth and his "the Pacific did it", criticism that I partly share.

We -in general- depart from the actual energy imbalance (here is the most recent incarnation of Earth's Energy Imbalance by Trenberth, Fasullo et al) something in between 0.5 and 1 W/m2, that is, some 8 to 16 x 10^22 J in one decade. We know that part of it has gone into the atmosphere, melted a fraction of the cryosphere and warmed a bit the first few feets of the soil, but that doesn't amount to all of it. Most of it had to go into the oceans. We all know the graphic that macdoc posts here systematically (number 2) and in it we found the "lost" zetta Joules.

What Chen and Tung do in their paper is use a methodology slightly different from that of Levitus' to recalculate ocean heat content, and they even change -very wisely in my opinion- the definition of Atlantic, Pacific and Indian. They illustrated the results in this figure -I don't have the paper at home but I emailed myself a couple of snapshots-

picture.php


in which we are induced to observe how little the next-to-surface heat has varied (bluer line) and how much it did that at a depth of 1500 metres (redder line).

A basin by basin figure is provided there, with oceans redefined: the Atlantic, deprived from the Arctic and amputated more than a half of its Southern Hemisphere's part, warms a lot, so it does the "Southern Ocean" defined as the one orbiting around the Antarctic Circumpolar Current which is extended up to Cape Town and now includes New Zealand as a whole. Both Pacific and Indian, deprived of their southern parts, show little change.

A lot of analysis follow. From what I remember, they fell in love with the first empirical orthogonal function, which retains almost 50% of the total temporal and spacial variation in the set and they see a Niña pattern in the upper ocean and the concentration of heat in deeper levels of the southern ocean -with emphasis in the Southern Atlantic (yay!!)- and in the high latitude and eastern arch of the Atlantic meridional overturning circulation.

An analysis follows, discussing the Niño pattern in the Pacific ending by 1998 and the Niña pattern from 1999 on, together with the neutral behaviour of the Atlantic before 1998 and the heat ditching in the northern part from 1999 on:

picture.php


They analyse the salinity mechanism as the one responsible for the heat-ditching in the Northern Atlantic and explains it (darker regions in the Northern Hemisphere)

350px-SeaSurfaceDensity.jpg


Then, a rich discussion comes, with a formidable enumeration of different mechanisms for the "pause" that has been proposed, and papers dealing with them. The conclusions are many, but the most commented in the blogosphere is that the mechanism is still on, it "seems" to work in three decade periods, and a Niño in the near future could induce higher global temperatures but it all goes back to a similar stagnation once it's gone. Then, at some point 10 or more years in the future, the mechanism reverses -this is what the authors suggest, something that I consider criticizable- and some decades of steeper temperature trend come.

The paper is not intended as a generator of definitive conclusions but to suggest new directions for research.

We may discuss a lot of it. For a scientific forum, a paper like this one, and a dozen papers related to it, some somewhat complementary, some in opposition may have us talking hundreds of posts.
 
Thanks for the detailed explanation. I was rather careful to use the 'if' in my initial comment. We should always be careful about posting a definitive against any one study. It's likely that there is a combination of factors related to the 'pause', biases in records as shown by Cowtan and Way, ENSO and volvanic factors shown in Foster and Rahmstorf, but it's also entirely possible that a long cycle in the Atlantic is also a factor. I really doubt there is 'definitive' underlying mechanism. All of these studies just help us explain the distribution of energy within the system, the elephant in the room is the energy imbalance at TOA. Wherever the energy is going, it's still accumulating and it's going to kick us in the arse at some point. Even when the rate of increase in surface atmospheric temperstures is depressed, the energy imbalance hasn't disappeared, it's just shifted to a different sink. The various cycles will shift back and energy accumulation in the lower atmosphere will ramp up again. There's no way round that until folks, especially the political classes, realise that they have to do something serious about GHG emissions.

Did they explain why they didn't display data lower than about 25S? The data displayed for the northern hemisphere extended to 60N. I was under the impression that the ARGO coverage was equally sufficient in the southern oceans.
 
They gathered all the ocean south of 25°S into "Southern Ocean" (figure D within the first image in my previous post). And, yes, ARGO covers reasonably well down to 58°S and partially beyond.

The fact is that in the last decade (to June 2014) some 1.25 x 10^23 J has gone into the 60% of the ocean that is between 0 and ~2000m. The effect of that has been an average temperature increase of some 0.04°C for the whole decade. This figure should be enough warning about expecting "the revenge of the ditched heat" any time soon, even during the first half of the current century. Heat going down the ocean cause the warming to have a moderate upper trend and doesn't hide but averts possible excursions into a much warmer world.

Natural variability, a Niño, for instance, will bring warmer months. If there's in the making a Kelvin wave stronger than the present weak one, and it builds up quickly maybe we'll be seeing next February beating the record of 1998, and the false "pause" and the playing along with that notion will be officially over. I don't think that is going to occur, at least, quick enough to meet the date, though the Indian Ocean now looks more eager to contribute to an El Niño event.

But in the mid term the deep heat ditching is here to stay and the probable outcome of a Niño is an increase of the imbalance TOA so additional heat will need to be ditched, and it will. Contrary to what Chen and Tung speculate in their paper, I expect the salinity mechanism to develop further and not to invert its flow. It's as simple as the Land Hemisphere (with pole near Nantes, France) concentrates the heat and evaporation and the Water Hemisphere (with pole near New Zealand's Bounty Islands) is the one which receives in the long term most of that heat ditched. The hub in the southern ocean that I called "da structure" one year ago or two is the one that controls the distribution among different ocean basins and I'm sure it's going to be an important topic in years to come.
 
Here ya go Alex - tilt at this windmill.

The report says if the world continues to spew greenhouse gases at its accelerating rate, it's likely that by mid-century temperatures will increase by about another 3.6 degrees Fahrenheit (2 degrees Celsius) compared to temperatures from 1986 to 2005. And by the end of the century, that scenario will bring temperatures that are about 6.7 degrees warmer (3.7 degrees Celsius). http://phys.org/news/2014-08-panel-glob ... erous.html

Just another bunch of warmists I suppose

Who are these IPCC clowns anyways??.....:rolleyes:
 
Here ya go Alex - tilt at this windmill.



Just another bunch of warmists I suppose

Who are these IPCC clowns anyways??.....:rolleyes:

You probably can't sort them out, but warmers of different flavours -speculators, vocational, etc- certainly are the chain starting with Associated Press and ending here with yourself. What the 127-page report really says, who'd know? It looks the important thing is cherry-picking what is able to provoke amazement or fear like your so anglospherical "And by the end of the century, that scenario will bring temperatures that are about 6.7 degrees warmer (3.7 degrees Celsius)" or the bit "The 127-page draft, obtained by The Associated Press paints a harsh/stark warning..." that different media are echoing.

I bet the 6.7° warmer (Kelvin, Réaumur ... don't care, precision is clearly not the goal there but emotional manipulation) are gotten from a figure -drawings and colours attract the attention of the children, text is boring and jargonistic-, from the second worst scenario estimated as an average of runs of models that are: not Earth system 90% of them, older than 2005 the cores of most of them, 1°x1° or worse gridded most of them, 38 or less levelled most of them, even not-coupled a few of them.

So, if after years and years you still weren't able to learn the difference between science, with its successes and errors, and plain press distortion and manipulation, either you easily reach your full mental prowess or you're part of the problem.
 
If global warming actually becomes a problem, we know how to stop it.
Here is the plan. Customize several Gulfstream business jets with military engines and with equipment to produce and disperse fine droplets of sulfuric acid. Fly the jets up around 20 kilometers—significantly higher than the cruising altitude for a commercial jetliner but still well within their range. At that altitude in the tropics, the aircraft are in the lower stratosphere. The planes spray the sulfuric acid, carefully controlling the rate of its release. The sulfur combines with water vapor to form sulfate aerosols, fine particles less than a micrometer in diameter. These get swept upward by natural wind patterns and are dispersed over the globe, including the poles. Once spread across the stratosphere, the aerosols will reflect about 1 percent of the sunlight hitting Earth back into space. Increasing what scientists call the planet’s albedo, or reflective power, will partially offset the warming effects caused by rising levels of greenhouse gases.
http://www.technologyreview.com/featuredstory/511016/a-cheap-and-easy-plan-to-stop-global-warming/

Of course some country with military jets could also use this to destroy the economy (and starve a billion people), if they wanted to. By simply doing it until we return to a little ice age.
 
Alex your arrogance is just at the point of being nauseating - go argue with the IPCC.
They made the statements.....your post is narcissistic in the extreme.
Your communication skills are part of the problem Alec.....and this time ESL is not an excuse....it's purposeful arrogance....good fodder for the right wing.

••

Meanwhile back with working climate scientists and their debunking of Delingpole et al in the latest bit of nonsense making the rounds.

THIS..
http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-...accused-of-Criminally-Adjusted-Global-Warming

Is polemics

AUSTRALIAN BUREAU OF METEOROLOGY ACCUSED OF CRIMINALLY ADJUSTED GLOBAL WARMING

Gavin's response to a query

http://blog.hotwhopper.com/2014/08/weather-in-rutherglen-with-wuwt.html
http://moyhu.blogspot.com.au/2014/08/adjustments-sometimes-warm-sometimes.html

same old, same old...

gavin


==========

Gavin Schmidt
Director, NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies
2880 Broadway
New York, NY 10025
Tel: 212 678 5627
Email: [email protected]
URL: http://www.giss.nasa.gov/staff/gschmidt.html

You see Alec, he's approachable....that's why he is an effective voice.
You have laryngitis at the moment in regard to getting some climate science information across.
 
Alex your arrogance is just at the point of being nauseating - go argue with the IPCC.
They made the statements.....your post is narcissistic in the extreme.
Your communication skills are part of the problem Alec.....and this time ESL is not an excuse....it's purposeful arrogance....good fodder for the right wing.

So, the bottom line is you have no answer.

That confirms you are part of the problem, not the IPCC which results you shamelessly manipulate (or endorse other's manipulations, what is exactly the same).
 
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