Global warming discussion III

Status
Not open for further replies.
Thanks for the clean up in Aisle 6...;)

We really need a cope and mitigate thread separate from the climate change science thread to discuss what is actually being DONE as the world warms....from the Dutch dikes to changes in agriculture...instead of just talked about.
Here is something being done right now and being copied extensively:


His best field so far? 11% SOM up from less than 2% SOM. Calculate that if successfully practised worldwide! ;)

Apparently a bad link. Here it is fixed
 
Last edited:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...uarter-of-2015-were-earths-warmest-on-record/

March and the first quarter of 2015 were Earth’s warmest on record

In California, the 12 month period ending in March was the warmest on record, a record that has been bested every month, seven times in a row, since September 2014.

I suppose I could say that I predicted 2014 would be the hottest year and then 2015 would be even hotter, but it's not exactly a prediction when pretty much everyone already knows it's gonna happen.
 
Yes, 12-month global temperature anomaly ending March 2015 is 0.741°C, three-month in a row record breaking (previous record was the year ending August 2014) and completing an 8-month series of 12-month running mean global temperature anomalies above the previous records in July 2010 and August 1998 (0.673°C).

Brace yourselves, as the most advanced dynamical models are predicting an El Niño lasting beyond new year and with ONI indexes of 1.8. Anomalies between 0.8 and 0.85°C are to be reasonably expected by the end of the year.

On the other hand, this doesn't mean any extraordinary developments between 45 and 90° of latitude, nor an extraordinary strong hurricane season -at least during the Northern Summer-. Any stupid warmerism crying Greenland and Antarctica melting, or surges caused by a train of hurricanes, or the sea ice demise will be lately used by the immoral deniersphere to advance their disinformation campaign further.

The next 12-month period is gonna be real hot, there, where the heat is and where most of the planet is. Not necessarily it Britain or Pennsylvania or wherever the navel of the anglosphere is. If that remoteness from such navel makes egotist self-centred Anglospherites think that what is happening is not important at all, promote awareness and the general improvement in quality of the social tissue of your societies, not stories about Arctic methane bursts and other BS.
 
The next 12-month period is gonna be real hot,
indeed it is

Robert Scribbler does a very good job of keeping up to date and his articles are thorough if a bit dramatic...
that said the situation in the Pacific and Arctic deserve some drama

This is just nuts :boggled:

High anomaly departures in the range of 15-20+ degrees C above average cover about 1/3 of the high Arctic region above 80 degrees North Latitude. Laptev, Kara, Barents and the Arctic Ocean proper are all included in the heat bulge. Temperatures in this zone today spiked to near or above the point at which sea ice melts at the surface (-2.5 C) with temperatures in the Kara in the 0 to -2 C range, temperatures in the Laptev in the -2 to -4 C range and temperatures within 100 miles of the pole hitting around -3.8 C. For this region, these are readings more typical to June or even July,

https://robertscribbler.wordpress.com

and in the Pacific

monster-kelvin-wave-redux.gif


As we can see in the NOAA CPC rendering above, the current Kelvin Wave is a massive and extraordinarily warm beast of a thing. It encompasses most of the thousands-miles broad Equatorial Pacific with its hottest zone peaking at 5-6 degrees Celsius above average temperatures a region that stretches from near the Date Line all the way to just west of Central America. At +1.75 C for the entire below-surface equatorial region, the current Kelvin Wave is already approaching last year’s peak values. Values it may well exceed in the coming days.

Just staggering numbers and that may morph to a high end El Nino next year which causes billions of dollars in damage....the current El Nino is not a strong one...what comes next tho....

Fun times.....not :nono:
 
Last edited:
If a person believes that it's a real problem with potentially severe effects and that person also complains loudly about other people who "deny science," then I would expect them to live their lives according to what the science is telling them. Electric cars, solar power -taking every step they possibly can to mitigate the problem. Otherwise, yes, they are hypocrites and it indicates that they are every bit as much a part of the problem as the "science deniers," they castigate.

How exactly are they advocating that? All I see is political point scoring. If the Dems were actually concerned, they would join the Reps in endorsing an aggressive nuclear power program.

First, most Republicans, including myself, both acknowledge and support the findings of mainstream climate science, and the need to take action now to limit and restrict the dangers of human sourced emissions, as well as understanding the perils of under-regulated nuclear power. That said, many of us, as well as many Democratic supporters and politically unaligned science and technology advocates are pushing for an increase in the US and global use of advanced design nuclear systems. This said, there are alternative energy sources that are both sustainable, do not require the emission of fossil carbon, and are proving quite capable of addressing much of our current and future energy requirements.

http://environment.yale.edu/climate-communication/article/republican-views-on-climate-change
 
Last edited:
I'm shifting stance on nuclear ONLY due to costs.

I still think an IFR is a critical project.

But dispersed power sources - especially solar are just too cosdt effective and I see places like IKEA opting out of the central power structure, providing their own off grid power and supplying homes around them.

There is a town in Germany doing a similar thing and I think there will be communities competing with central power and undercutting them.

Add in electric vehicles as a load leveller and giante home UPS and we have a very different economic structure for power.

At this point I'd br surprised if North America undertook the 3/4 Trillion dollar smart grid tho I think they have no choice on the 1/4 trillion maintenance of the existing grid.

Further advances in storage and inverters and power controls will see more and more going off grid and only paying a maintennce fee to be able to tap grid power.

I think small nuclear may well have a role to play yet.
 
Sure Alec - it's okay if you post it but not okay if other people do - needs your blessing does it or it's not valid???? horsepucky..... - your attitude is just plain tiresome - either contribute to the thread or go play in your ice pond.....

Your negative attitude sucks and instead of actually pointing out where the article is wrong - which you cannot since you posted the same material and noted that this year will "interesting" - you come up with a puerile dismissive pejorative because you don't like name of the author writing it ( you've dissed Robert before and I suspect you did not read this article or the previous one )
......how incredibly juvenile. :rolleyes:

I already pointed out the article was dramatic.......JUST WHAT IS NOT DRAMATIC ABOUT THOSE ARCTIC NUMBERS !!!!!!!????? 20 C above normal for a huge swath of the Arctic above 80 degrees N !!!!!. :boggled:

part.jpg


••••••
 
Last edited:
Now some of you will take this with a grain of salt or........consolidate the "oh ****" moment from the Arctic numbers.
Others might learn a little background on the last time the planet had a carbon spike.

FRIDAY, APRIL 10, 2015
North Siberian Arctic Permafrost Methane Eruption Vents
Mantle Methane Leakage via Late Permian Deep Penetrating Fault and Shear Fracture Systems Rejuvenated by Carbon Dioxide and Methane Induced Global Warming

By Malcolm P.R. Light, Harold H. Hensel and Sam Carana

Abstract

In North Siberia some 30 permafrost methane eruption vents occur along the trend of the inner (continental side) third of the Late Permian Taimyr Volcanic Arc where the crust and mantle were the weakest and the most fractured. Deep penetrating faults and shear systems allowed molten basaltic magmas charged with large volumes of carbon dioxide and methane free access to the surface where they formed giant pyroclastic eruptions. The large volume of carbon dioxide and methane added to the atmosphere by this Late Permian volcanic activity led to a massive atmospheric temperature pulse that caused a major worldwide extinction event (Wignall, 2009). These deep penetrating fractures form a major migration conduit system for the presently erupting methane vents in the North Siberian permafrost and the submarine Enrico PV Anomaly. During periods of lower atmospheric carbon dioxide and lower temperatures, the permafrost methane vents became sealed by the formation of methane hydrate (clathrate) plugs forming pingos. The surface methane clathrate plugs are now being destabilized by human pollution induced global warming and the mantle methane released into the atmosphere at the permafrost methane explosion vents. This has opened a giant, long standing (Permian to Recent) geopressured, mantle methane pressure-release safety valve. There is now no fast way to reseal this system because it will require extremely quick cooling of the atmosphere and the Arctic Ocean. The situation calls for comprehensive and effective action, including breaking down the methane in the water before it gets into the atmosphere using methane devouring symbiotic bacteria (Glass et al. 2013) and simultaneously breaking down the existing atmospheric methane using radio-laser systems which can also form methane consuming hydroxyl molecules (Alamo and Lucy Projects, Light and Carana, 2012, 2013).

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/--KsdbAf0-Ug/VSdpkWv6WVI/AAAAAAAAQFE/e6szK1MEXQI/s1600/FIGURE1.JPG

long well researched article - worth the read IMNSHO.....your conclusions may vary

FIGURE1.JPG


Kinda hard to deny something is going on with methane that bears examination when you get spectacular events instead of slow seepages and bubbles...
....the question is....how serious?...how wide spread?
 
Last edited:
How good science works....even when it goes against the "accepted wisdom"
...so completely refutes the nonsense about the mythincal anti-AGW climate scientists being ignored or muzzled just more right wing horsepucky.

A Scientific Debate
Filed under: Climate Science — mike @ 13 April 2015
Guest posting from Bill Ruddiman, University of Virginia

Recently I’ve read claims that some scientists are opposed to AGW but won’t speak out because they fear censure from a nearly monolithic community intent on imposing a mainstream view.
Yet my last 10 years of personal experience refute this claim. This story began late in 2003 when I introduced a new idea (the ‘early anthropogenic hypothesis’) that went completely against a prevailing climatic paradigm of the time. I claimed that detectable human influences on Earth’s surface and its climate began thousands of years ago because of agriculture. Here I describe how this radically different idea was received by the mainstream scientific community.

Was my initial attempt to present this new idea suppressed? No.
I submitted a paper to Climatic Change, then edited by Steve Schneider, a well-known climate scientist and AGW spokesman. From what I could tell, Steve was agnostic about my idea but published it because he found it an interesting challenge to the conventional wisdom. I also gave the Emiliani lecture at the 2003 December American Geophysical Union (AGU) conference to some 800 people. I feel certain that very few of those scientists came to my talk believing what my abstract claimed. They attended because they were interested in a really new idea from someone with a decent career reputation. The talk was covered by many prominent media sources, including the New York Times and The Economist. This experience told me that provocative new ideas draw interest because they are provocative and new, provided that they pass the key ‘sniff test’ by presenting evidence in support of their claims.

Did this radical new idea have difficulty receiving research funding? No. Proposals submitted to the highly competitive National Science Foundation (NSF) with John Kutzbach and Steve Vavrus have been fully funded since 2004 by 3-year grants. Even though the hypothesis of early anthropogenic effects on climate has been controversial (and still is for some), we crafted proposals that were carefully written, tightly reasoned, and focused on testing the new idea. As a result, we succeeded against negative funding odds of 4-1 or 5-1. One program manager told me he planned to put our grant on a short list of ‘transformational’ proposals/grants that NSF had requested. That didn’t mean he accepted our hypothesis. It meant that he felt that our hypothesis had the potential to transform that particular field of paleoclimatic research, if proven correct.

Were we able to get papers published? Yes.
As any scientist will tell you, this process is rarely easy. Even reviewers who basically support what you have to say will rarely hand out ‘easy-pass’ reviews. They add their own perspective, and they often point out useful improvements. A few reviews of the 30-some papers we have published during the last 11 years have come back with extremely negative reviews, seemingly from scientists who seem deeply opposed to anything that even hints at large early anthropogenic effects. While these uber-critical reviews are discouraging, I have learned to put them aside for a few days, give my spirits time to rebound, and then address the criticisms that are fair (that is, evidence-based), explain to the journal editor why other criticisms are unfair, and submit a revised (and inevitably improved) paper. Eventually, our views have always gotten published, although sometimes only after considerable effort.
more

http://www.realclimate.org
 
Do the "global warming" enthusiasts ever stop to think that if we stop using fossil fuels like they want, billions will die?


:eye-poppi

How does that work? If we all stopped using fossil fuels then how would billions die? There are only ~8bn people on the planet, how many multiples of billions are you talking about dying? What do you base this claim on?

We are eventually going to have to stop using them as they will run out. Over the next 20-30 years it's highly likely that we'll significantly reduce how much of them we use, there's also likely to be significant improvements to technology and something will prove to be more cost effective to generate electricity than fossil fuels as the price of them increases.

There's one aspect of the argument that we're not the cause of climate change that I truly do not understand.

If we are the cause of Climate Change, and do nothing, things get pretty bad for our descendants, we can all agree on that much at least right?

If we take action and reduce our CO2 emissions and find alternative ways to generate the energy we need, and it turns out we were not the cause of Climate Change, then what do we lose?

What's the major downside to reducing our use of fossil fuels? Why are people so set against it? I don't understand.
 
Hey, Mac. The methane eruptions post links to the JPG you posted rather than the article itself - can I get a link to the article so I can post it elsewhere? Cheers.
 
Sure Alec - it's okay if you post it but not okay if other people do - needs your blessing does it or it's not valid???? horsepucky..... - your attitude is just plain tiresome - either contribute to the thread or go play in your ice pond.....

Your negative attitude sucks and instead of actually pointing out where the article is wrong - which you cannot since you posted the same material and noted that this year will "interesting" - you come up with a puerile dismissive pejorative because you don't like name of the author writing it ( you've dissed Robert before and I suspect you did not read this article or the previous one )
......how incredibly juvenile. :rolleyes:

I already pointed out the article was dramatic.......JUST WHAT IS NOT DRAMATIC ABOUT THOSE ARCTIC NUMBERS !!!!!!!????? 20 C above normal for a huge swath of the Arctic above 80 degrees N !!!!!. :boggled:

[qimg]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-X7SGCuPsW1I/VTM1A-DEe8I/AAAAAAAANA0/ja__jU8r50c/s512/part.jpg[/qimg]

••••••

Speaking of horsepucky and juvenile tiresome attitudes :rolleyes: that repeat once and again, you don't have the faintest idea of what you're talking about, again. You have done absolutely no effort to check whether those values are both true and atypical for the region and season or not.

It'd suffice you had check at NCEP/NCAR's, first, temperatures anomalies for these dates:

compday.rrAvRlW7yj_owj0.gif


and secondly, before jumping to false conclusions and false values by looking those +14°C, you should have checked anomalies against recent years:

compday.7m3eJYEx7B_xzc8.gif


and have the prudence of confirming that there are changes of -15°C as well as of +15°C when compared to last year's, which everybody knows was not so impressive in terms of sea ice melting.

If the whole Arctic had been +15°C above last year's it still would have meant nothing, but last image itself shows not only that temperatures compared to recent years have been this month more on the cooler side, but more significantly, that the regions where ice melts first or failed to form this season are where the largest positive values pop, DUH!!! while the regions where ice is kept through Summer or tends to melt the last have cooled. So if some stupid conclusion was to be obtained was this year being plenty of ice.

So this instance, that not by accident involves that Scribbler dude and you, serves the purpose of illustrating what happens when warmists, who were forced by The Pause to be restrained and demure, become riotous when a new loop of the escalator comes and unleashes them. Shame on you!

The current jump into the reality of global warming is going to change many things, but immoral denialism is not going to be stopped if irrational warmerism isn't stopped as well.

Yet, I still have hopes that you macdoc can change.
 
But by reading all the horsepuck of the Siberian methane and the hype on the last late February, my hopes diminish...

Methane is already leaking, sometimes one million tons a day, with bursts of thousands of tons, sometimes more, producing transient peaks of methane concentration that go up to 20% in regional scale. That was already happening 60 years ago. Now it's more intense, yet a minor factor in the whole problem.

Methane release by warming with slow constant seepage is not so intense because of the action of methanotrophs. Methane bursting is kinda the old norm and not the new harbinger of disaster.

The subject has being extensively discussed here already. But like denialists claiming "it's the Sun", it looks warmists are also attached to their ****.

It seems it wasn't enough my warning some days ago:

this doesn't mean any extraordinary developments between 45 and 90° of latitude, nor an extraordinary strong hurricane season -at least during the Northern Summer-. Any stupid warmerism crying Greenland and Antarctica melting, or surges caused by a train of hurricanes, or the sea ice demise will be lately used by the immoral deniersphere to advance their disinformation campaign further.

The next 12-month period is gonna be real hot, there, where the heat is and where most of the planet is. Not necessarily it Britain or Pennsylvania or wherever the navel of the anglosphere is. If that remoteness from such navel makes egotist self-centred Anglospherites think that what is happening is not important at all, promote awareness and the general improvement in quality of the social tissue of your societies, not stories about Arctic methane bursts and other BS.
 
His best field so far? 11% SOM up from less than 2% SOM.
A few problems, Red Baron Farms
* a single anecdote is not evidence. Even multiple anecdotes is not evidence.
* quoting just the best value is bad - you needed to quote the average increase in SOM.
* it is obvious that any increase in SOM will sequester carbon and mitigate global warming. The question is by how much.
The real world facts are that global warming is driven primarily by our CO2 emissions and that reducing emissions enough will stop global warming. This is a solution that will work and can be done with few economic costs and some benefits.
Increasing SOM as in Gabe Brown's talk is a scientifically untested mechanism with unknown economic effects.
* You are the one supporting soil sequestration - it is up to you to do or cite the calculations to support this :p!
 
Last edited:
A few problems, Red Baron Farms
* a single anecdote is not evidence. Even multiple anecdotes is not evidence.
* quoting just the best value is bad - you needed to quote the average increase in SOM.
* it is obvious that any increase in SOM will sequester carbon and mitigate global warming. The question is by how much.
The real world facts are that global warming is driven primarily by our CO2 emissions and that reducing emissions enough will stop global warming. This is a solution that will work and can be done with few economic costs and some benefits.
Increasing SOM as in Gabe Brown's talk is a scientifically untested mechanism with unknown economic effects.
* You are the one supporting soil sequestration - it is up to you to do or cite the calculations to support this :p!
*It is part of a case study done in partnership with the USDA-NRCS, NCAT-ATTRA and The Burleigh County Soil Conservation District. There actually may come a time when this evidence does become published and peer reviewed in the manner you suggest. Either way, whether it does or doesn't, this is an entirely different level of "anecdotal" as it was evidence collected by trained and credentialed individuals as part of their scientific research, Jay Fuhrer[1] if I remember correctly.
*His average is closer to a 5% improvement and increasing yearly with no signs of diminishing returns as of yet. In fact quite the opposite. It seems the higher the % the more rapidly SOM increases. This can be explained by the higher bioactivity of soils with higher SOM and how that effects fertility. So far no sign of approaching any plateaus.
*Please explain how reducing emissions enough will stop global warming, lacking sequestration of CO2 already in the atmosphere? I also want you to explain how you conclude this is scientifically untested, when the evidence is a result of an ongoing case study? ie a form of scientific testing.
*I have posted calculations many times, but it is all hypothetical because it depends on the degree in which the methods are adopted worldwide. One county is not nearly enough. Even 40 million acres is not nearly enough. The degree to which it is adopted will determine the degree of impact on AGW.
 
Last edited:
*It is part of a case study done in partnership with the USDA-NRCS, NCAT-ATTRA and The Burleigh County Soil Conservation District. ...
So still anecdotal, Red Baron Farms - just with addition of the logical fallacy of argument from authority.

*His average is closer to a 5% improvement and increasing yearly with no signs of diminishing returns as of yet.
Which points out an issue with using soil to sequester carbon - there will be diminishing returns!
Unless you are advocating turning grasslands into essentially peat (100% SOM) :D!

*Please explain how reducing emissions enough will stop global warming, ...
Red Baron Farms:
Global warming is primarily caused by increasing levels of CO2 in the atmosphere. If levels of CO2 were to stop increasing tomorrow then global warming will stop in in a couple of decades as the atmosphere and oceans come to equilibrium with the new level. So reducing emissions enough will stop global warming.

*I have posted calculations many times, ...
We have seen Savory's rather ignorant assertion in his TED talk and his wishful thinking calculation. But that was easily debunked as in the RealClimate article that you must know about.
Thank you for acknowledging that Savory's HM is a hypothetical rather than real mechanism for mitigating global warming.

ETA:
A post about Soil Carbon Sequestration from Trakar has a published range of "5 to 15% of the global fossil-fuel emissions."
 
Last edited:
Global warming is primarily caused by increasing levels of CO2 in the atmosphere. If levels of CO2 were to stop increasing tomorrow then global warming will stop in in a couple of decades as the atmosphere and oceans come to equilibrium with the new level. So reducing emissions enough will stop global warming.


Equilibrium takes a bit longer than that to be established, primarily because we are currently so far out of equilibrium. The warming already due, even if we stopped all emissions today, will generate additional natural emissions which will cause further warming.

Short term equilibration is on the order of a couple of centuries, long-term equilibrium may ultimately extend out for millennia, with the determining factor being how close we are to how many natural "tipping point" events.

This reference is a bit dated but covers the basics:
The Climate Change Commitment
T. M. L. Wigley

ftp://ftp.soest.hawaii.edu/coastal/Climate Articles/Wigley_2005 Sea level commitment.pdf

...I considered the conventional (CC) commitment of changes that occur if atmospheric composition is held fixed at present (2000) levels, and the CE commitment for which emissions are fixed at their present levels. These commitments have been quantified for both global-mean temperature and sea level rise. Time-dependent changes are considered rather than just the usual asymptotic or equilibrium commitment.

The CC warming commitment rises steadily to an eventual warming of about 0.2- to more than 1-C. The contribution from past natural forcings exceeds that from past anthropogenic forcing. The corresponding CE warming
commitment has no limit even on a time scale of many centuries, primarily because, at CE, CO2 concentrations continue to rise for a millennium or more. The CE warming commitment in 2400 ranges from 2- to almost 6-C,
with most of the commitment due to past anthropogenic forcing. Both climate sensitivity and past aerosol forcing uncertainties are important in determining the CC commitment, whereas climate sensitivity is the main source of uncertainty for the CE commitment...
 
Global warming is primarily caused by increasing levels of CO2 in the atmosphere. If levels of CO2 were to stop increasing tomorrow then global warming will stop in in a couple of decades as the atmosphere and oceans come to equilibrium with the new level. So reducing emissions enough will stop global warming.

Not quite as Trakar notes above ....we have impacted the climate out at least 3000 years and delayed or cancel the next ice age.....
It will take a while to reach radiative equilibrium if we stopped adding to the CO2 load completely.
My understanding is about 60 years ....however - recent information shows there is a positive feedback...global warming incurs more global warming....so that pushes equilibrium out further.

Changes in albedo may not be reversible or be stable at this point in the Arctic and of course the 900 lb gorilla is permafrost looked carbon and methane and that is already showing activity.

All bets are off as to stabilization if that is a strong positive feedback.

We can see the jaggies on exiting previous interglacials

http://www.skepticalscience.com/images/Temperature_Interglacials.gif

We WERE poised to be tipping downward to a cooler orbital regime....we reversed that about 300 years back ( maybe longer if you accept land use theories ).

Orbital influence is way way below that of fossil CO2 ...orbitals are the trigger that sets major change in motion over a long time period....once an ice age is exited due to orbital change you can see how ( relatively) quickly a positive feedback takes hold as warmer oceans release more CO2 and ice free oceans have a lower albedo.
The other side of the graph is far more jagged.

For now our aerosols are the big uncertainty. SO2 for sure is countering AGW by blocking the sun reaching the planet.

If SO2 gets cleaned up as China in particular intends to do ....then AGW could spike as it did after the Acid Rain campaign in the late 70s early 80s.

The big thing is....we don't know at what point the climate regime hits tipping points for feedbacks....and there is a record of abrupt swings which likely involve the ocean currents.....and that now appears to be occurring. :(

The article in RealClimate shows this potential
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2015/03/whats-going-on-in-the-north-atlantic/

This is a real roll of the dice as to the impact but you can be certain it will be wild and in particular destructive for N Europe.
Interesting times.

The relatively benign Holocene is gone....we cope and mitigate...we ain't goin back.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom