Merged Global Warming Discussion II: Heated Conversation

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Well, climate is essentially long-term weather. We don't have a fantastic definition of climate, but things like average rainfall, the range of rainfall, average temperatures, the range of temperatures, when the peaks are reached, etc. all play a role. There is a certain amount of randomness to it, but typically within a given range.

Individual weather events can exceed the normal range without being indicative of climate change. You can see tempestites in normally tranquil sediments throughout geologic time, for example. These events tend to be rare, however; therefore increased frequency can be indicative of climate change. It's kind of like a glacier. No single snowfall produces a glacier; it takes accumulated snows for years to do so. Similarly, no single weather event constitutes climate; but, taken as a whole, year after year, they add up to the climate of the region.

Climate is complex, however. There are multiple oceanic circulation systems, as well as atmospheric circulation systems, that all interact. Warmer temperatures in one area can be causally linked to cooler temperatures in another, due to these interactions. So yes, it's possible for even global warming to cause localized cooling, via several mechanisms. For example, shifts in thermohaline circulation can push warm-water currents further from an area, cooling it. If the Gulf Stream shifted to the other side of Greenland, England would rapidly become significantly cooler while eastern Canada would warm up considerably.Wind patterns can shift, causing some areas to increase in aridity while others become more wet. Shifts in sea levels also play a part--oceans function as enormous heat sinks. Take a drive in the summer from Long Beach to Bakersfield and you can see this in action. Higher sea levels inundate large areas, bringing that heat-sink further inland. This can cool some areas, by preventing the wild temperature swings they would otherwise encounter.

Add in such things as threshold events and forcing mechanisms over thousands of years, and it becomes possible for increased temperature to trigger an ice age.

The climate is changing. I'm not interested in why, particularly; the simple fact is that climate changes constantly (but not consistently). The real question in my mind is what to do about it. Personally I hope we are at the end of the ice age we're currently in, rather than merely in yet another interglacial; glacial periods are fairly horrifying in terms of civilization. Last time the ice sheets started in the Hudson Bay and extended down to central Ohio--meaning that Canada would basically be wiped out, and many of the cities in New England would be piles of rubble sitting in Pennsylvania. Not quickly--we'd have generations to prepare--but inevitably. The planet isn't normally in glacial periods (Zachos et al., 2001; Figure 2 is the money shot), and return to normal conditions would be a good thing. The issue is, it would EVENTUALLY be a good thing; the ecosystem would EVENTUALLY stabilize. The loss of human life could be catastrophic if we're not careful.

For further reading, I recommend Peter Ward's book "Futur Evolution". It discusses these issues, and more, in detail, as well as potential solutions.
 
Share your weather stories here.

Right now it's unusually warm, so that means climate change. Plus it rained a lot two days ago.
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Warm??? Today its not bad, only -4 C. However that will be short lived, and it was -19 C yesterday. Its been colder than -20 C (daytime high temp) for weeks now and will be going baxck to that for at least another week starting tomorrow.

As for the rest of your post, you are entitled to be what most people describe as wrong, and you are obviously quite willing to avail yourself of that entitlement.
 
every wheater event is influenced by AGW.

While this may be true, the issue is determining and demonstrating it. As I said, weather occurs within a particular range under a specific climate regime. A shift in that climate regime would be a shift in that range. Any weather events that occur in the overlapping regions (however you define them) wouldn't count as evidence for climate change by themselves--or at least, wouldn't count as GOOD evidence by themselves. They would at best be ambiguous, as they could support multiple conclusions.
 
While this may be true, the issue is determining and demonstrating it. As I said, weather occurs within a particular range under a specific climate regime. A shift in that climate regime would be a shift in that range. Any weather events that occur in the overlapping regions (however you define them) wouldn't count as evidence for climate change by themselves--or at least, wouldn't count as GOOD evidence by themselves. They would at best be ambiguous, as they could support multiple conclusions.

sure the single events would not count as much, but the weather events of a period of time would.
 
sure the single events would not count as much, but the weather events of a period of time would.

Agreed, only I go further (I prefer Strong Inferrence). That's why I was very careful to say that "by themselves" and the like. "Taking every weather event" as evidence to global warming (to paraphrase) implies that each event INDIVIDUALLY counts as evidence. This is wrong. Weather, as you say, over time counts as evidence, but only the individual weather events outside of the overlapping regions between two hypothesized climate regimes count as evidence for either by themselves.

An individual fossil isn't evidence of evolution. Fossils in agregate are, and individual fossils within a particular context (meaning when compared to other fossils) are. Similarly, individual weather events aren't typically evidence for climate change; you need to look at agregates in order to draw any conclusions.
 
It must again be noted that you are discussing the weather in Manitoba and not global climate. While the increase of warm winters in Manitoba no doubt is a symptom of global warming, it is merely a data-point, and should probably be treated as such in a discussion with a denier.

Agreed. I was pointing out that even as a single data point it supports fairly significant warming not the cooling being suggested.

(That said, winter 2 years ago was remarkably warm by any standard. No snow and temperatures around +10 Deg C until mid December; only one period of about a week in the -20 Deg C otherwise close to freezing; melting with most snow gone at the end of February; genuine heat in March with +20 Deg C and even a +30 Deg C day. This may be in the range of being so unlikely without global warming you have to take it as more than weather)
 
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Originally Posted by Arnold Martin View Post
That is my point exactly , we are having a normal cold winter .

nother COTU bit of nonsense...in part because of Arctic amplification climate change is hitting faster there than anywhere else

That does not necessarily mean warmer winters as we've explained elsewhere..if anything it implies a wider range of weather .....but your Grade 9 education precludes explaining in terms you might understand let alone bother to read.

I see Faux news is about your speed - political mindset included ....set as in concrete.:rolleyes:
 
10 day forecast shows temperatures at around +/- 4 degree off the norm each day. ITS TOO AVERAGE, MUST BE GLOBAL WARMING!

That is written as an induced inference.

But you may be meaning something around the induced inference. If that's the case, can you cite any source, even a fun website, where someone selected a random worldwide sample of locations -stratified sampling by bands of latitude- and then processed the 10 day forecasts for them taken from a well known weather website and arrived to the conclusion you are trying to make the reader infer?
 
Sorry ale,
You can rant until the cows come home and it still won't change things.

1) The grassland biome actually sequesters carbon long term as opposed to the relatively short almost neutral carbon cycle found in forests. That's why I posted that link.
2) Nearly all the grassland biome is now no longer functioning as a net carbon sink due to changes we humans made. Taken as a whole that land now functions either nearly neutral or as a net carbon source. CAFO's are net carbon emissions sources. Plowed ground is a net carbon emissions source. Plowing ground to grow grains to feed CAFO's is doubly an emissions source. Cutting forest to plow ground to grow grains to feed CAFO's is triply harmful. That's why I posted the other links.
3) Human activity that takes a carbon sink and turns it into a carbon emissions source can be defined as a driver to AGW.
4) Your cleverly worded denialist attitude is not allowed on this thread. You want to deny it, bring science and/or statistics as I have.

You want to prove we didn't plow under 99% of the arable grassland in the US and Canada? (or even most the world actually) Prove it. Lets see your data. You don't think most the dry grasslands of the world are undergoing desertification ? Come on. Show me. You don't think that the soils lost their carbon? Prove it. Lets see your data. You don't think that is driving AGW? Show me. Show everyone. Instead of your ridiculous attacks at me, attack the argument. I want to see you prove that. And if you are not willing to prove it, go away. You are no different than any other flavor of AGW denialist.

Not wanting to believe modern scientific organic agriculture in its many forms as a viable option to both feed the world and heal the environment I can forgive. Since you don't know anything about farming, I expect that. But denying that agriculture has that effect on the environment to begin with? Pure woo.
 
Share your weather stories here.

Right now it's unusually warm, so that means climate change. Plus it rained a lot two days ago.

Weather events are signs of climate change.

It's scientific. A big storm is a sign of climate change. Human caused climate change.

Oh, and if you want to post in this topic you have to agree that weather events prove climate change.

Any dissent will be reported as off topic.

You can learn more about how weather means climate change here (as of this post our planet has accumulated 2,048,881,819 Hiroshima atomic bombs of energy because of climate change)

So if you don't think it is real remember that is over two billion bombs dropped on Hiroshima so far.

Extreme weather means climate change. So things like tornadoes, wind, ice, snow and heavy rain shows climate change. So does unusual heat, extreme cold, heavy snow, lack of snow, no snow, more snow than anyone has ever recorded before, and ice storms.

Flooding can be considered weather, since it means climate change. So does drought. And record heat. So share your weather stories and show the world how science can make a difference.
No, weather is not climate, but is a reflection of climate, as others here have said and as you know (I was going to add "good try" in analyzing your post, but it actually falls far short of that). AGW is based on climate studies not idiosyncratic weather.

The middle of the US has had a cold spell (I understand the same is currently true of parts of the East coast). That is weather. The climate overall is getting warmer and more atypical.
 
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sure the single events would not count as much, but the weather events of a period of time would.

Also weather events that are far outside the normal range can be attributed to the fact that it is warming.

This a concept some people struggle with when discussing weather vs climate. This lack of understanding ends up in sputtering "but... but...but.. you said a weather event was the result of global warming therefor a normal cold snap is proof there is no global warming!!!"


The difference here is twofold. First one is the attribution of a specific event to a known warming trend while the second is trying to prove a trend with a single event. These are very different things.

The second difference is where the events fir relative to the trend. A heat wave that is a 1/1000 year event without warming but a 1/40 year event with warming can't plausibly be called "just a normal weather event" and can in fact be attributed to global warming. Conversely a cold winter that would have been normal 3 decades ago doesn't by itself hold any significance, because such an event is still within a reasonable range of probability.


re the OP, there is this trend in certain political quarters to think that they can make a factual incorrect statement but that they can avoid being called out on it by claiming "it's a joke".
 
RBF - you quoted some information in your initial post here without any sort of assessment which just appears then out of context.
Alec afaik is on about you overstating the importance of land use.
Make a case with supporting references and not speculative over statement.

modern scientific organic agriculture in its many forms as a viable option to both feed the world and heal the environment I can forgive.

That is an overstatement.

It will take a million small Manhattan Projects to mitigate AGW. This MAY be one of them but you will have to do a better job of explaining beyond generalities.
The one paper you link to is specific to Manitoba. I'd say if you want a land use thread - then open one up as it would be a chaotic conversation here and Alec is dubious ...I'm more neutral as to the scale of import to climate.

A dedicated thread on land use ( which I certainly am interested in as a factor in climate change and would participate in ) would allow a more coherent conversation.

This particular thread is wide encompassing as to main stream climate science - land use is only loosely related tho would have to draw on the scienc.- and by that loose association may fragment any case you are trying to make.
 
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lomiller said:
Also weather events that are far outside the normal range can be attributed to the fact that it is warming.
Not necessarily. A hundred-year flood is outside the norm; however, it'll happen once every hundred years (on average). It's not necessarily that you're wrong; it's that your statements can be misinterpreted.

Normal climate includes hundred, five hundred, and thousand year storms, floods, etc. What counts as evidence is increases in frequency of those (or decreases, of course, depending on the location). One hundred-year flood a century means nothing. Five is pretty clear evidence.
 
There is a very easy solution to global warming.

All we have to do is cut fossil fuel consumption in half

All we have to do is make it illegal for half the population to use fossil fuels.

I propose all the Global Warming activists , scientists , politicians , & students should be the ones denied the use of fossil fuels.

Problem solved.
 
The alternative

There is a very easy solution to global warming.

All we have to do is cut fossil fuel consumption in half

All we have to do is make it illegal for half the population to use fossil fuels.

I propose all the Global Warming Deniers should be the ones denied the use of fossil fuels.

Problem solved.
 
Odd since you don't admit there is problem...a

The alternative

There is a very easy solution to global warming.

All we have to do is cut fossil fuel consumption in half

All we have to do is make it illegal for half the population to use fossil fuels.

I propose all the Global Warming Deniers should be the ones denied the use of fossil fuels.
Problem solved.

I propose all the Global Warming Deniers should be the ones denied the use of fossil fuels.

great idea - line up at the electric plug :rolleyes: Perhaps a good start would be denial of use service for the internet. Kill the meme right quick.
A few publications have stuff the cork in.....even Reddit...working on it here.

You just gonna continue to troll?

•••

BTW stopping using fossil fuel cold turkey will not stop AGW - it will just mitigate it. You can look up the word if it's beyond your Grade 9 education.
Gonna take a few decades to reach a new radiative balance.
 
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My preferred remedy would involve a carbon tax on all fossil fuels. I am talking worldwide.

It would amount to trillions of dollars

I want the money sent to me.

Because I am the savior of the planet
 
The alternative

There is a very easy solution to global warming.

All we have to do is cut fossil fuel consumption in half

All we have to do is make it illegal for half the population to use fossil fuels.

I propose all the Global Warming Deniers should be the ones denied the use of fossil fuels.

Problem solved.

Dean Swift's Modest Proposal, pull back and leave your place to this brilliant piece of satire!
 
Odd since you don't admit there is problem... (snip)


You just gonna continue to troll?

•••

.

Correct .... I but we can convince the people there is a problem by telling everyone the planet is doomed.

That way I can implement my solutions.

By the way I am not a troll. I am a legitimate denier.

I live on this planet too , and everything affects me just as much as it affects you. All I want is an equal voice in running the planet. Actually I wish they would put me in charge of the IPCC. Kinda like a dictator scenario

Thank you
 
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