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Global Consciousness Project

jzs, can I emphasise just one single question that both Zed and Claus are trying to get an answer to;

regardless of whether the machine is by definition 'calibrated' or not, how can you get a comparible baseline in an experiment where it is impossible to distinguish the independent variable from a control? The RNG has to be run in isolation from the event it is recording to form a negative control. This is what people are asking.

Thanks.,

Athon
 
Oleron said:
Can someone please tell me what the supposed connection is between global conciousness and a black box spewing out 1's and 0's?

That is precisely what they are investigating, if deviations in the RNG output correspond with engaging global events.
 
CFLarsen said:
But the REGs are not staying random when GC is not "focused". Radin's own data show this.


What do you mean by "not staying random"? And please show exactly where the RNG's are "not staying random".


Just what is "group focusing"? It clearly isn't when 9-11 happened, because the fluctuations begin before the attack started.


Show the specific "Radin's data" you are referring to, please.


The eggs are not calibrated, OK?


Not ok, not at all. You are mistaken.

http://noosphere.princeton.edu/reg.html

"They are subjected to calibration procedures based on large samples, typically a million or more trials, each the sum of 200 bits."

RNG calibration means passing the tests. They have passed the tests. Therefore they are calibrated.


Whatever comes out of them is worthless.

You have yet to show any evidence for that. A fine piece of scoffing, however.
 
CFLarsen said:
What "positions" or "values" do these eggs show, Justin?


All calibration means when talking about RNGs is that they've passed the DIEHARD tests. The RNG's have passed the tests. Therefore they are calibrated.

The "positions" or "values" that are returned in the calibration are p-values. ie: page 28 of the .pdf file

http://oregonstate.edu/instruct/st511/schafer/displays_2nd_ed/overheads1_8.PDF

The page

http://random.com.hr/products/random/manual/html/Diehard.html

states

"Most of the tests in DIEHARD return a p-value, which should be uniform
on [0,1) if the input file contains truly independent random bits."


So you get these bitstreams, compute a test statistic, get a p-value, do this for different generated bitstreams, get a bunch of p-values, then do a test to see if these p-values are uniformly distributed over [0,1). If the test shows they are uniform, then your RNG is behaving in a random manner.


Do you honestly think that the data that comes out of the eggs is of value?

Yes, I do. They are just RNG's afterall; nothing magical about that. However, you are getting personal, no surprise. My honesty has nothing to do with the actual data. Please stay focused here. "Only evidence counts", you'd do well to remember what you've told others..
 
athon said:

how can you get a comparible baseline in an experiment where it is impossible to distinguish the independent variable from a control?

It is a RNG, so we know its mean, its spread; we basically know everything about what it should be producing. These are RNG's that have been used in other applications for a while. No odd results.

When their ouput is looked at large scale at interseting times, there are some results that seem out of place for otherwise perfectly operating RNG's, and that is what is being studied.
 
jzs said:
What do you mean by "not staying random"? And please show exactly where the RNG's are "not staying random".

I already showed you the OJ example. Why did you ignore that? There are data fluctuations when there shouldn't be any. Please explain these fluctuations.

jzs said:
Show the specific "Radin's data" you are referring to, please.

Take a look at the graph "Terrorist Attacks, Sept 11, 2001"
Source

The data shows that fluctuations began before the attacks. How do you explain that? Yes, I am asking you.

jzs said:
"They are subjected to calibration procedures based on large samples, typically a million or more trials, each the sum of 200 bits."

RNG calibration means passing the tests. They have passed the tests. Therefore they are calibrated.

Please explain how you can shield off the eggs from a "global consciousness".
 
jzs said:
So you get these bitstreams, compute a test statistic, get a p-value, do this for different generated bitstreams, get a bunch of p-values, then do a test to see if these p-values are uniformly distributed over [0,1). If the test shows they are uniform, then your RNG is behaving in a random manner.

No, no, no, Justin. What you get is a change in the bitstream that is not random. But, as we have seen, the eggs are not calibrated, because they cannot possibly be calibrated. Garbage in, garbage out.

jzs said:
Yes, I do. They are just RNG's afterall; nothing magical about that. However, you are getting personal, no surprise. My honesty has nothing to do with the actual data. Please stay focused here. "Only evidence counts", you'd do well to remember what you've told others..

You keep wanting this to be personal, so you won't have to address the points. Your choice.
 
jzs said:
When their ouput is looked at large scale at interseting times, there are some results that seem out of place for otherwise perfectly operating RNG's, and that is what is being studied.

But they don't coincide with actual events, do they?
 
PixyMisa said:
First, you create a control universe...

:dl:

Maybe global concsious has some weak distant dependance, then a control earth would be enough.

:crazy:

Carn
 
jzs said:
All calibration means when talking about RNGs is that they've passed the DIEHARD tests. The RNG's have passed the tests. Therefore they are calibrated.

The "positions" or "values" that are returned in the calibration are p-values. ie: page 28 of the .pdf file

http://oregonstate.edu/instruct/st511/schafer/displays_2nd_ed/overheads1_8.PDF

The page

http://random.com.hr/products/random/manual/html/Diehard.html

states

"Most of the tests in DIEHARD return a p-value, which should be uniform
on [0,1) if the input file contains truly independent random bits."


So you get these bitstreams, compute a test statistic, get a p-value, do this for different generated bitstreams, get a bunch of p-values, then do a test to see if these p-values are uniformly distributed over [0,1). If the test shows they are uniform, then your RNG is behaving in a random manner.
Wonderful!

Now tell us all, Justin - Was all this "calibration" of these fabulous EGGs done while "Global Conciousness" was turned ON or turned OFF?

Hint: You can't turn it off...
 
So, a global consciousness can influence a bitstream? Flip a 0 to a 1?

Where can we find a really long string of bits over a really long time? Oh, yes, computers! They are everywhere, and - by golly - if the string of bits isn't completely correct, your computer will crash. Your car, having computers, will stop working. People will die from malfunctioning equipment that keep them alive in hospitals. Planes, being loaded with computers, will fall from out of the skies like snowflakes. The havoc is not only immense, it is world-wide.

Justin, don't you think that people would start noticing, when all these things happen during a "global" (haha) event such as the OJ case? The Olympics? 9-11?

Or were they simply too busy observing the "global" event?
 
Zep said:

Hint: You can't turn it off...

We don't even know if 'it' exists, so what is the issue?

All RNG calibration means is that the RNG has passed the tests. They have passed the tests. Therefore they are calibrated.

Anything else you read into the situation; what the hypothesized global consciousness can or cannot do, is irrelevant.
 
CFLarsen said:
So, a global consciousness can influence a bitstream? Flip a 0 to a 1?

Where can we find a really long string of bits over a really long time? Oh, yes, computers! They are everywhere, and - by golly - if the string of bits isn't completely correct, your computer will crash.
That might not be the best argument. :p

But it does suggest that the level of influence is somewhat less than... Let me work this out... One in ten quadrillion or so, just based on my Windows PC here.

And for some reason, Linux is an order of magnitude more resistent to psychic effects. Useful trait, that.
 
jzs said:
We don't even know if 'it' exists, so what is the issue?
If you want to test for it, the test needs to be valid. It ain't.
All RNG calibration means is that the RNG has passed the tests. They have passed the tests. Therefore they are calibrated.
Nope. If the hypothesis is true, then the calibration is invalid. It's like trying to calibrate a set of scales while a litter of kittens is jumping all over them. Except that you can remove the litter of kittens - and they are observable in other ways.

The hypothesized "Global Consciousness" cannot be otherwise observed (that anyone has said), and cannot be removed or screened. So you cannot calibrate the RNG against this hypothesis.
 
jzs said:
We don't even know if 'it' exists, so what is the issue?

So if we don't know it exists, how do we know that it DIDN'T affect the calibration at all?

All RNG calibration means is that the RNG has passed the tests. They have passed the tests. Therefore they are calibrated.

Also known as "calibration by proclamation"? Do you agree that is good science?

Anything else you read into the situation; what the hypothesized global consciousness can or cannot do, is irrelevant.

Um, no. It's entirely the point. If you are chasing some phenomenon then it would make a modicum of sense to use an instrument that you AT LEAST have confidence can measure this phenomenon to some degree, or even just confirm it exists.

If the measuring instrument is made WITHOUT CARING if it can actually measure it's target phenomenon or not, well...doesn't that sound pathetic and quite ridiculous just to start with? (The word I was going to use initially was "unhinged", btw...)
 
jzs said:
We don't even know if 'it' exists, so what is the issue?

But "it" exists, because we can see it from the data coming out of the eggs. Isn't that the whole idea??

If the eggs doesn't measure "it", what the heck are they doing??
 
Some things that should be pointed out about this type of statistical analysis:

First of all, the calibration issue. What can be done, and what appears to have been done, is to take randomly selected streams of data from the RNG, of the same length as will be used experimentally, and calculate their statistical properties. This then serves as a base-line, or control data. Alternatively if this control data matches the expected statistical predictions, then on can just use those.

The problem with this idea of calibration, with respect to this experiment, is that they have not controlled for outside influences on the RNG's. After all, the assumption of the experiment is that something is influencing their behavior. So how do we know that nothing is influencing their behavior when we collect the control data?

Now one could argue that since the experiment is trying to discover if anything is influencing their behavior, then this doesn't matter. In this case the argument would be that the purpose of the calibration is simply to make sure that the behavior is not always being externally influenced, so that they can look for the cases when it is.

The problem with this is that even if we find statistically significant evidence of external influence, we have no idea what it is. It could be anything. It could be solar or even inter-stellar radiation interfering. It could be a slight bias due to increased radio-wave activity. It could be any number of things we would never even think of.

It also does no good to argue that the RNG's are "shielded" from such electronic or environmental influence, because no shielding is perfect. And since they are looking for things at the very fringe of detectability, any bias, no matter how tiny, could be responsible for the effects.

But all of this is irrelevant, because the statistical methods they have used to claim that they have found such evidence of external influence, are simply flawed. The fact is that you simply cannot evaluate the probability of a single statistical anomaly accompanying a single world event. What they are doing is simply data mining.

What they would have to do is to clearly define what constitutes a statistical anomaly, and also what constitutes a world event. Then they could look at long term data, and determine whether there is a statistically significant correlation between the timing and occurrence of the two. As it is, all they are doing is counting the hits and ignoring the misses. Indeed, it is not possible for them to not do this, since they do not bother to define what constitutes a hit until they find one, and do not define what constitutes a miss at all.


Dr. Stupid
 
Mr Feline, this is what we have been trying to tell someone for some posts now. Thank you for spelling it out in full, but we wonder if it will still sink in...
 
PixyMisa said:

Nope. If the hypothesis is true, then the calibration is invalid.


No, that is nonsense, because, again, you are hypothesizing what the hypothetical global consciousness hypothetically is capable of doing or not doing, and all calibration means in the case of RNGs is that the RNG did not fail the tests. That is all.
 

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