Glenrothes by-election

[Ivor the Engineer]

I think the fate of Iceland brought home to people how vulnerable and exposed small countries can be when the world economy goes tits up.

Not that this will make any difference to those whose motivation for Scottish independence is grounded in emotion rather than reality.

As an aside, what's the SNP's position on EU integration? Is the call for independence only from the rest of the UK (or even just England), or do they want to pull out of Europe as well?

 

[Architect]

Yes, and a big country is going to take away a major part of our banking sector and lead to the loss of tens of thousands of jobs.

What's your point, caller?

Is the call for independence only from the rest of the UK (or even just England), or do they want to pull out of Europe as well

You may wish to consider the legal implications if the Act of Union is repealed.

 

[CapelDodger]

I think the fate of Iceland brought home to people how vulnerable and exposed small countries can be when the world economy goes tits up.

Scotland's colonial fiasco at Darien springs to mind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_of_Scotland

"All told, the disastrous venture, dubbed the Darien Scheme, drained Scotland of more than a quarter of its liquid assets and may have played a key role in pushing the country to the eventual 1707 Act of Union which united Scotland and England. The English agreed to cover the Scottish Government's debt to its people, and this was likely one of the main reasons the Acts of Union were not as heavily resisted by the government of Scotland as they had with other English attempts to amalgamate the two countries, although prevailing public opinion in Scotland was overwhelmingly against it."

This is no time to cast-off from the Bank of England.

As an aside, what's the SNP's position on EU integration? Is the call for independence only from the rest of the UK (or even just England), or do they want to pull out of Europe as well?

The SNP is pro-Europe. Their position is that as long as they're in Europe there's no need to be in the UK.

 

[Architect]

The Darien analogy is incomplete. Darien was specifically a response to the crippling of Scotland's trade as a result England's continual wars against continental Europe, our principal trading partners, and hence our domestic economy was in an abject state. I find the reference to the Bank of England particularly amusing, since William Paterson - the force behind Darien - was one of the Bank's founders.

But hey, don't let the fact that I was one of a very small number who studied Scots History at school get in the way of a bit of confirmation bias

 

[geni]

The Darien analogy is incomplete. Darien was specifically a response to the crippling of Scotland's trade as a result England's continual wars against continental Europe, our principal trading partners, and hence our domestic economy was in an abject state.

And that is meant to be a plus point for scotland why? Just a further demonstraition of the problems scotland runs into under difficult economic conditions.

 

[Darat]

Yes, and a big country is going to take away a major part of our banking sector and lead to the loss of tens of thousands of jobs.

...snip...

As far as I was aware the takeover is of one UK bank by another?

 

[Architect]

And that is meant to be a plus point for scotland why? Just a further demonstraition of the problems scotland runs into under difficult economic conditions.

Really, I know the English curriculum doesn't really cover the other home nations very much prior to the various Unions, but stick with the programme; we were being bankrupted because the English state blockaded trade with European ports, our principal trading partners. Likewise because we were allied with same we were denied access to English colonies in North America.

 

[Rolfe]

You going to tell him why things got so bad during the 17th century, or let him find out for himself?

Myself, I blame Essex man.

Rolfe.

 

[Giz]

Really, I know the English curriculum doesn't really cover the other home nations very much prior to the various Unions, but stick with the programme; we were being bankrupted because the English state blockaded trade with European ports, our principal trading partners. Likewise because we were allied with same we were denied access to English colonies in North America.

So Scotland never figured that making alliances with all of Englands enemies would make life on the British Isles a bit harder than it needed to be? They should have tried being better neighbours...

 

[CapelDodger]

The Darien analogy is incomplete. Darien was specifically a response to the crippling of Scotland's trade as a result England's continual wars against continental Europe, our principal trading partners, and hence our domestic economy was in an abject state.

Do what now? We're talking the 1690's here. What were these continental wars you speak of? The Scottish problem (vis-a-vis England), apart from it being mostly a godawful wilderness, was that Edinburgh money was excluded from the East India Company.

I find the reference to the Bank of England particularly amusing, since William Paterson - the force behind Darien - was one of the Bank's founders.

I referred to the Bank of England in today's terms; amusingly, you don't seem to have considered that Paterson was collecting his pay-off for bankrupting Scotland. The BoE was founded on the funding of government debt, a chunk of which paid for the Darien fiasco and bought the Act of Union. You guys were like lambs to the slaughter, frankly.

But hey, don't let the fact that I was one of a very small number who studied Scots History at school get in the way of a bit of confirmation bias

Learning Scottish history in Scotland should make you very wary of confirmation bias. I, on the other hand, can take a disinterested view.

 

[CapelDodger]

So Scotland never figured that making alliances with all of Englands enemies would make life on the British Isles a bit harder than it needed to be? They should have tried being better neighbours...

The English were always going to roll over Scotland at some point. Scottish alliance with the French simply delayed the inevitable.

 

[geni]

Really, I know the English curriculum doesn't really cover the other home nations very much prior to the various Unions, but stick with the programme; we were being bankrupted because the English state blockaded trade with European ports, our principal trading partners. Likewise because we were allied with same we were denied access to English colonies in North America.

Scotland was free to trade with anyone it liked within europe (well until the Alien Act 1705). If it was unable to get it goods past a maritime blockade well then it was free to build a navy and attempt to challange that blockade. That is was unable to do so is as I said a demonstraition of the problems an independent scotland faced in difficult economic conditions.

 

[geni]

The English were always going to roll over Scotland at some point. Scottish alliance with the French simply delayed the inevitable.

Questionable. From the POV of England Scotland was a lot less tempting than northern France. The highlands in particular were full of mountians and people who tried to kill you. While some of the more ambitious english kings had a go at the place the general aproach appears to have been to rely on the northumbrians to keep the scots out on a day to day basis and more southern forces when they invaded in significant numbers.

 

[Architect]

Scotland was free to trade with anyone it liked within europe (well until the Alien Act 1705). If it was unable to get it goods past a maritime blockade well then it was free to build a navy and attempt to challange that blockade. That is was unable to do so is as I said a demonstraition of the problems an independent scotland faced in difficult economic conditions.

As opposed to its problems being caused by a larger, more powerful and beligerent neighbour? My, what an interesting perspective.....

 

[Giz]

As opposed to its problems being caused by a larger, more powerful and beligerent neighbour? My, what an interesting perspective.....

Let's be clear here… there was belligerence on both sides.

Some Scottish Invasions of England (snipped from Wiki):

David ignored truces with England and was determined to stand by his ally Philip VI during the early years of the Hundred Years' War. In 1341 he led a raid into England, forcing Edward III to lead an army north to reinforce the border. In 1346, after more Scottish raids, Philip VI appealed for a counter invasion of England in order to relieve the English stranglehold on Calais. David gladly accepted and personally led a Scots army of over 12,000 men southwards with intention of capturing Durham. In reply, an English army, of 5,000 men, moved northwards from Yorkshire to confront the Scots. On October 14, at the Battle of Neville's Cross, the Scots were defeated.

England under Henry VIII declared war on France in 1512 (as part of the larger conflict known as the War of the League of Cambrai). James IV of Scotland invaded England in fulfilment of his alliance with France. (Ending in the battle of Flodden Field).

War broke out in 1541. Once again there were preliminary border skirmishes, but when James sent a large army into England, its leadership was weak and divided and it suffered a humbling defeat at the Battle of Solway Moss.


Who can say how Scotland would have been treated in the 17th and 18th centuries if they hadn't kept siding with France and trying to pincer England but instead been more neighbourly?

 

[Rolfe]

As opposed to its problems being caused by a larger, more powerful and beligerent neighbour? My, what an interesting perspective.....

I still blame Essex man.

I'm still waiting for someone to understand what I'm talking about.

1601, anyone?

Rolfe.

 

[Architect]

Giz, I can see that Scottish History is a foreign land to you. You might want to look at (in no particular order) the Wars of Independence, claims of overlordship from the English throne, the invasion of Scotland by Cromwell.

 

[geni]

As opposed to its problems being caused by a larger, more powerful and beligerent neighbour? My, what an interesting perspective.....

Having problems caused by large, powerful and beligerent neighbours would count as normal economic conditions in europe. Are you suggesting that an independent scotland was unable to cope with normal economic conditions?

 

[Giz]

Giz, I can see that Scottish History is a foreign land to you. You might want to look at (in no particular order) the Wars of Independence, claims of overlordship from the English throne, the invasion of Scotland by Cromwell.

Architect, All I am claiming is that not all of the blame can be laid at England's door… I would not neccesarily disagree that England was being a wee bit naughty in the wars of independence and taking advantage of its position of relative power. However, there was aggression and opportunism on both sides… as was the norm in that era.


And the use of Cromwell as an example of English aggression is a bit iffy, the English Parliament was responding to the imminent threat of a Scottish invasion to put the (Scottish!) King back in charge…

(From Wiki… Second Civil War)

Charles I took advantage of the deflection of attention away from himself to negotiate a new agreement with the Scots, again promising church reform, on 28 December 1647. Although Charles himself remained a prisoner, this agreement led inexorably to the Second Civil War.

A series of Royalist uprisings throughout England and a Scottish invasion occurred in the summer of 1648.


Or were you thinking of two years later (the Third Civil War) when the Scots acclaimed Charles II King and ended up marching into England as far as Worcester before Cromwell caught them and ended the civil wars for good …?

 

[Rolfe]

Having problems caused by large, powerful and beligerent neighbours would count as normal economic conditions in europe. Are you suggesting that an independent scotland was unable to cope with normal economic conditions?

Scotland managed pretty well as an independent nation. Like I said, it all comes down to what Essex man failed to achieve, and 1601.

Rolfe.