Gitmo: more whiny BS about "torture" - get real

[Bjorn]

over-exaggerate

Is that a real word or just something the president was saying?

 

[Cleon]

Is that a real word or just something the president was saying?

(censored). You know what I mean, dammit.

 

[bigred]

It might be that when Rumsfeld, who isn't exactly a leftist commie, says it is "blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhuman", I tend to believe it is at least as bad as he is willing to admit.

Yeah. It might be. It might also be that he's wrapped up in who-knows-what kind of political games/struggles/etc which could affect his public comments in all kinds of ways.

But I'm not taking someone's say-so (even his) or allegations as "fact." I'm also maintaining that most of the things PROVEN to have happened are decidedly NOT "torture."

 

[Bjorn]

Yeah. It might be. It might also be that he's wrapped up in who-knows-what kind of political games/struggles/etc which could affect his public comments in all kinds of ways.

But I'm not taking someone's say-so (even his) or allegations as "fact." I'm also maintaining that most of the things PROVEN to have happened are decidedly NOT "torture."

Sure ...

Committee member Lindsey Graham, Republican from South Carolina, commented after the Senate hearing, “The American public needs to understand we’re talking about rape and murder here. We’re not just talking about giving people a humiliating experience.”

 

[varwoche]

Yeah. It might be. It might also be that he's wrapped up in who-knows-what kind of political games/struggles/etc which could affect his public comments in all kinds of ways.

But I'm not taking someone's say-so (even his) or allegations as "fact." I'm also maintaining that most of the things PROVEN to have happened are decidedly NOT "torture."

Oddly though, you present no facts and ignore facts presented by others. No offense, but it seems like whiny bs and that you should get real.

 

[RandFan]

Sure ...

Hmmm....

Originally posted by bigred
I'm also maintaining that most of the things PROVEN to have happened are decidedly NOT "torture."

Committee member Lindsey Graham, Republican from South Carolina, commented after the Senate hearing, “The American public needs to understand we’re talking about rape and murder here. We’re not just talking about giving people a humiliating experience.”

So your "sure" seems to suggest that Lindsey Graham's comments controvert the notion that most of these things are not torture or, that most of the things are, in fact, rape and murder, correct?

If bigred had said that there never was any torture then I would say that Graham's words controvert such a notion. Even if that where the case, Graham's words alone don't prove anything.

 

[Bjorn]

Hmmm....

So your "sure" seems to suggest that Lindsey Graham's comments controvert the notion that most of these things are not torture or, that most of the things are, in fact, rape and murder, correct?

If bigred had said that there never was any torture then I would say that Graham's words controvert such a notion. Even if that where the case, Graham's words alone don't prove anything.

Maybe reading bigred's OP made me believe he doesn't think much serious happened to prisoners at all?

I'm sick to DEATH of the media and similar whiny boneheads talking about prisoners being forced to stand for 30 minutes or pee their pants (etc) as "torture." aw. I guess we shoulda used "time outs

FOXNews (not exactly a liberal source) wrote this after seeing the pictures:

The meeting took on new significance because of the torture and sexual humiliation of prisoners uncovered at the Abu Ghraib prison outside of Baghdad.

 

[Ladewig]

But I'm not taking someone's say-so (even his) or allegations as "fact."

If you have no "facts" available to you, then why do you adopt the position of "it's not torture" rather than the position of "I do not know if there was torture or not"?

If there is no one in the world whose word you will accept on this matter, then it appears that your only recourse is to launch your own investigation.

I'm also maintaining that most of the things PROVEN to have happened are decidedly NOT "torture."

Are you willing to admit that some of the things PROVEN to have happened are most decidedly torture?

 

[bigred]

Committee member Lindsey Graham, Republican from South Carolina, commented after the Senate hearing, “The American public needs to understand we’re talking about rape and murder here. We’re not just talking about giving people a humiliating experience.”

I assume he/she has proof of this, right?

 

[bigred]

Oddly though, you present no facts and ignore facts presented by others. No offense, but it seems like whiny bs and that you should get real.

Wow I love when people can't think of anything to say and so use my own words against me.

The burden of proof is not on me. Remember all that "innocent till proven guilty" stuff from school? Or didn't they cover that in vo tech?

 

[bigred]

Graham's words alone don't prove anything.

....or Rumsfeld's. or Foxnew's.

Finally somebody gets it. Thank you.

And here I thought this site was real big on proof and skepticism and all that.....?

 

[Bruce]

The burden of proof is not on me.

What!?!? Don't you realize that there are TONS of conspiracy theories out there? How do you account for the FACT that there are DOZENS of people who BELIEVE that torture might have happened at Gitmo? Do a google search, pal! You'll find pages and pages of PROOF in the form of news articles talking about alleged torture and unconfirmed reports right from the mouths of our worst enemies. Just like the BIBLE, if MILLIONS of people believe it, it must be true!

What do you have to say now, Mr. Close-Minded Skeptical Smarty-Smarty pants?

 

[Bjorn]

....or Rumsfeld's. or Foxnew's.

Finally somebody gets it. Thank you.

And here I thought this site was real big on proof and skepticism and all that.....?

Here we are, with Rumsfeld mentioning "blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhuman", FOXNews saying "torture and sexual humiliation" and bigred being "sick to DEATH of the media and similar whiny boneheads talking about prisoners being forced to stand for 30 minutes or pee their pants (etc) as "torture"." It's hard to know who knows what they are talking about.

 

[bigred]

Are you willing to admit that some of the things PROVEN to have happened are most decidedly torture?

First FYI here is an excerpt of the Taguba Report:

"I find that the intentional abuse of detainees by military police personnel included the following acts:

a. (S) Punching, slapping, and kicking detainees; jumping on their naked feet;

b. (S) Videotaping and photographing naked male and female detainees;

c. (S) Forcibly arranging detainees in various sexually explicit positions for photographing;

d. (S) Forcing detainees to remove their clothing and keeping them naked for several days at a time;

e. (S) Forcing naked male detainees to wear women’s underwear;

f. (S) Forcing groups of male detainees to masturbate themselves while being photographed and videotaped;

g. (S) Arranging naked male detainees in a pile and then jumping on them;

h. (S) Positioning a naked detainee on a MRE Box, with a sandbag on his head, and attaching wires to his fingers, toes, and penis to simulate electric torture;

i. (S) Writing “I am a Rapest” (sic) on the leg of a detainee alleged to have forcibly raped a 15-year old fellow detainee, and then photographing him naked;

j. (S) Placing a dog chain or strap around a naked detainee’s neck and having a female Soldier pose for a picture;

k. (S) A male MP guard having sex with a female detainee;

l. (S) Using military working dogs (without muzzles) to intimidate and frighten detainees, and in at least one case biting and severely injuring a detainee;

m. (S) Taking photographs of dead Iraqi detainees."


I'd say at least one (6K) is, if not torture, certainly on par with it in terms of its severity, and a few of the others might have been. The rest? Not hardly.

 

[bigred]

What!?!? Don't you realize that there are TONS of conspiracy theories out there? How do you account for the FACT that there are DOZENS of people who BELIEVE that torture might have happened at Gitmo? Do a google search, pal! You'll find pages and pages of PROOF in the form of news articles talking about alleged torture and unconfirmed reports right from the mouths of our worst enemies. Just like the BIBLE, if MILLIONS of people believe it, it must be true!

What do you have to say now, Mr. Close-Minded Skeptical Smarty-Smarty pants?

lol!

My bad :humbled:

 

[Leif Roar]

First FYI here is an excerpt of the Taguba Report:

Funny how you left out this part:

8. (U) In addition, several detainees also described the following acts of abuse, which under the circumstances, I find credible based on the clarity of their statements and supporting evidence provided by other witnesses (ANNEX 26):

a. (U) Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees;

b. (U) Threatening detainees with a charged 9mm pistol;

c. (U) Pouring cold water on naked detainees;

d. (U) Beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair;

e. (U) Threatening male detainees with rape;

f. (U) Allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell;

g. (U) Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick.

h. (U) Using military working dogs to frighten and intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one instance actually biting a detainee.

 

[Cleon]

So now physical, sexual, and emotional abuse do not qualify as "torture."

Welcome to the New America, guys...spending some time working abroad in Europe is looking better and better.

 

[varwoche]

Wow I love when people can't think of anything to say and so use my own words against me.

The burden of proof is not on me. Remember all that "innocent till proven guilty" stuff from school? Or didn't they cover that in vo tech?

Pardon me but this is your diffuse, error-filled thread stating your unsupported opinion in which you disregard all contradictory evidence.

Next time I'll try broadcasting in a frequency you're capable of receiving ... AM.

 

[Mycroft]

b. (U) Threatening detainees with a charged 9mm pistol;

Years ago a police officer threatened me with a charged 9mm pistol. Stuck that thing right in my face, I was in my underwear too.

Was I tortured? Yes or no?

 

[Leif Roar]

Was I tortured? Yes or no?

The point of my post was that bigred was being intelectually dishonest in "forgetting" to quote a part of the report that listed more brutal incidents. Nobody has argued that all the points on this list constitutes torture, so I fail to see the point of your question.

However, to answer it anyway: it depends on the circumstances. Whether an action constitutes torture depends at least as much on the circumstances as on the severity of the action. To put it in very black and white terms, there is a difference between cutting someone's finger off to save them from gangrene and cutting their finger off to learn where he hid the money.

Likewise, there is a difference between pointing a loaded gun at someone that might be the "armed and dangerous" criminal you're looking for, and pointing a loaded gun at a prisoner tied naked to a chair.