Ghosts - what the real deal here?

MummRa said:
I have loved ghosts and ghost stories my whole life......

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So, is there any hope for my diminishing paranormal side? Is there any real evidence that ghosts or something "otherworldly" exists out there? Or is it all just....woo?
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Well, the answer would be NO, there is no REAL evidence for the existance of ghosts. There's plenty of "purported evidence", dubious claims, and even faked evidence, but no evidence in the sense of it being based on scientifically accepted empirical evidence that is verifiable, repeatable and falsifiable. That just doesn't exist. Short of that, any "evidence" offered falls short of the scientific method of testing claims

Will there ever be? No one knows with absolute certainty either way. If anyone claims that, they'd be lying. Personally, I would think not, based of the fact that ghosts (ones that interact with the "real world" by moving objects , passing through objects, making sounds, ..etc) would seem to violate the laws of physics as we know them. But what do I know.

As far as enjoying paranormal tv shows and the ilk, there's no conflict there. I've been an atheist and skeptic who'se been employing critical thinking for about 35 years now. As a kid, I loved shows on UFO's, aliens, Bigfoot, The Loch Ness monster, etc. I fell hook, line and sinker into believing that there was a decent possibility ALL could exist. When I was about 10 years old, in 1973, I came across a copy of Erich Von Daniken's "Chariots of The God's" that my parents bought. I immersed myself into that book and it was "my bible". But when I was around 16-17, the doubts I had been having (which became increasingly larger year by year) finally came to a head.

I had realized, after reading about all these strange phenomena, events and occurences, that there was not ONE SHRED of PROOF. And not just with UFO's, bigfoot, etc..but with ANYTHING supernatural or paranormal. This included ALL religions, psychics, ESP, etc.

It hit me like a ton of bricks. Here we were, around 1979 or so, and SOMEHOW, in the ENTIRE history of humanity, there has not been ONE SINGLE instance of ANY supernatural or paranormal event that had been scientifically confirmed to have happened. No "miracles" as people claim, no ESP, no psychic power, telekenisis, no Uri Geller spoon bending, no seeing the future, NOTHING. I mean NOTHING EVER PROVEN...EVER..NOT ONCE. That should speak VOLUMES, especially for anyone on the fringe. Not ONE paranormal, supernatural event has EVER BEEN SCIENTIFICALLY proven to have occured. It shows that the laws of physics REALLY do govern our reality. That's a comforting thought !!

From that day, I abandoned my much loved woo of holding out any hope to be real. EVIDENCE ruled my life.

But you know what. I'm STILL a sucker for the "Ancient Aliens" TV series. Watch it religiously. I watch shows on chupacabras, lake monsters, other alien and UFO shows, stigmata shows, spontaneous combustion theories, etc.

I enjoy it for what they are. I can even empathize for how these people get hooked into believing the reality of them. Those topics fascinate people. It's magical, mysterious, and fantasy come true. But I can seperate wishful thinking from THE FACTS. I'll always enjoy watching shows like that (but I never got into ghosts..sorry)

If you haven't figured it out yet, we skeptics and rational thinkers are in the small minority. most people are blind, naive, gullible sheep who will believe just about anything they hear, see or what people tell them.
They need a leader to follow and tell them what to do and think. They believe without question and without the need for any facts or evidence that's based in reality. (Religion figured that out LONG ago, and they've been cashing in ever since..financially and with political power and control). They haven't learned to think critically and use logic and rational thought when forming their opinions and beliefs. Evidence only spoils their beliefs, so they'd rather avoid it outright so they can live in their own special little worlds they create for themselves.


Welcome to reality. It's actually much more exciting than people think !
 
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Kumar said:
It can either be an entity or concept. You may have to find out it from whatever a person leave pre & post his life & at the time of his death.
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Sorry..no speaky crazy :confused:
 
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The reciprocating flange emotes strongly the entity through the barn but not over.
 
Kumar said:
AdMan said:
There is no actual evidence for any of this as "ghosts," sorry.
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Then, what other evidances we have?
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Misspelled ones.


Kumar said:
drzeus99 said:
Sorry..no speaky crazy :confused:
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We should try best to understand any unclear aspect either as entity or concept, means directly or indirectly.
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It seems that the only unclear aspect here is the one created by your inability to read and write English.

There's no shame in this, Kumar, but what amounts to a complete denial of this simple fact on your part is quite bizarre. What is the attraction of going through the motions of conversing with people when there's next to no possibilty of you being able to exchange meaningful ideas with them?
 
Squeegee Beckenheim said:
.... In addition, the existence of ghosts would require a complete re-writing of the laws of physics, as there is no conceivable mechanism by which ghosts could exist. Furthermore, nobody has even ever suggested a plausible mechanism by which ghosts could exist.
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IF they exist, that suggests that they in FACT operate withIN the laws of physics just fine, thank you.

The suggestion that because YOU have never heard of a plausible mechanism by which ghosts exist, means one doesn't exist, is ignorance.
 
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My take.

I am a skeptic, and I have never seen, heard or felt a ghost. I do however find the subject fascinating.

My reason for this is that there is such a huge volume of personal accounts of ghostly phenomena, many of them from naturally skeptical and level headed, rational people that I consider it unlikely that all of them are making it up.

If you filter out those who are making it up (quite probably a substantial number) you are left with those who have experienced something. My interest is in whether that experience is 'real' (something which exists outwith that person's brain) or some form of psychological manifestation.

Based on all available evidence, it would appear that the former explanation is unlikely (although not to be completely dismissed) and the latter far more probable. Either way, it is certainly interesting.
 
ScannerHead said:
IF they exist, that suggests that they in FACT operate withIN the laws of physics just fine, thank you.

The suggestion that because YOU have never heard of a plausible mechanism by which ghosts exist, means one doesn't exist, is ignorance.
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IF me auntie had balls, she'd be me uncle.
 
ScannerHead said:
IF they exist, that suggests that they in FACT operate withIN the laws of physics just fine, thank you.

The suggestion that because YOU have never heard of a plausible mechanism by which ghosts exist, means one doesn't exist, is ignorance.
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Ghosts as defined by physics are specifically all the phenomena we're talking about. There is research that suggests things like infrasound and magnetic fields can cause ghost sightings. Can't say how accurate it is. There is certainl a factor that people see more ghosts when they're expecting to see ghosts. If you want ghosts to work with physics then that's that you get; psychology and illusion.

If you want ghosts to be the floaty remnants of your deceased loved ones, bound to this plane for some unknowable reason, glowing and with an unhealthy interest in lightswitches and communication by s-p-e-l-l-i-n-g-e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g then you run into problems.
 
ScannerHead said:
IF they exist, that suggests that they in FACT operate withIN the laws of physics just fine, thank you.
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The fact that they wouldn't operate within the known laws of physics is therefore a good reason to suppose that they don't exist, no?

The suggestion that because YOU have never heard of a plausible mechanism by which ghosts exist, means one doesn't exist, is ignorance.
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I am, of course, open to any suggestions anyone might have. Given reasonable evidence I will change my mind accordingly. This is not ignorance, it's critical thinking.

Do you have any evidence to present? A hypothesis as for a mechanism by which ghosts could exist without violating the laws of physics, perhaps?
 
daviel said:
If you filter out those who are making it up (quite probably a substantial number) you are left with those who have experienced something. My interest is in whether that experience is 'real' (something which exists outwith that person's brain) or some form of psychological manifestation.

Based on all available evidence, it would appear that the former explanation is unlikely (although not to be completely dismissed) and the latter far more probable. Either way, it is certainly interesting.
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It's conceivably a combination of both. Infrasound would seem a plausible explanation for at least some ghost sightings. That's a physical phenomenon which has psychological effects.
 
Squeegee Beckenheim said:
It's conceivably a combination of both. Infrasound would seem a plausible explanation for at least some ghost sightings. That's a physical phenomenon which has psychological effects.
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Yes. Here's a good example of this from Wikipedia.

Research by Vic Tandy, a lecturer at Coventry University, suggested that an infrasonic signal of 19 Hz might be responsible for some ghost sightings. Tandy was working late one night alone in a supposedly haunted laboratory at Warwick, when he felt very anxious and could detect a grey blob out of the corner of his eye. When Tandy turned to face the grey blob, there was nothing.

The following day, Tandy was working on his fencing foil, with the handle held in a vise. Although there was nothing touching it, the blade started to vibrate wildly. Further investigation led Tandy to discover that the extractor fan in the lab was emitting a frequency of 18.98 Hz, very close to the resonant frequency of the eye given as 18 Hz by NASA. This was why Tandy had seen a ghostly figure—it was an optical illusion caused by his eyeballs resonating. The room was exactly half a wavelength in length, and the desk was in the centre, thus causing a standing wave which caused the vibration of the foil
 
daviel said:
Yes. Here's a good example of this from Wikipedia.

Research by Vic Tandy, a lecturer at Coventry University, suggested that an infrasonic signal of 19 Hz might be responsible for some ghost sightings. Tandy was working late one night alone in a supposedly haunted laboratory at Warwick, when he felt very anxious and could detect a grey blob out of the corner of his eye. When Tandy turned to face the grey blob, there was nothing.

The following day, Tandy was working on his fencing foil, with the handle held in a vise. Although there was nothing touching it, the blade started to vibrate wildly. Further investigation led Tandy to discover that the extractor fan in the lab was emitting a frequency of 18.98 Hz, very close to the resonant frequency of the eye given as 18 Hz by NASA. This was why Tandy had seen a ghostly figure—it was an optical illusion caused by his eyeballs resonating. The room was exactly half a wavelength in length, and the desk was in the centre, thus causing a standing wave which caused the vibration of the foil
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When developing a new control system for the L-1011 Tristar, the outboard ailerons were driven to oscillate at about that frequency. Not enough amplitude to be observed from inside the airplane, but the entire airplane shook! At the cockpit, the vibration was severe enough to make conversations on the radio almost impossible.
 
daviel said:
Yes. Here's a good example of this from Wikipedia.

Research by Vic Tandy, a lecturer at Coventry University, suggested that an infrasonic signal of 19 Hz might be responsible for some ghost sightings. Tandy was working late one night alone in a supposedly haunted laboratory at Warwick, when he felt very anxious and could detect a grey blob out of the corner of his eye. When Tandy turned to face the grey blob, there was nothing.
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This is not evidence of anything - and besides the whole infrasound thing has been questioned and largely de-bunked.

The following day, Tandy was working on his fencing foil, with the handle held in a vise. Although there was nothing touching it, the blade started to vibrate wildly. Further investigation led Tandy to discover that the extractor fan in the lab was emitting a frequency of 18.98 Hz, very close to the resonant frequency of the eye given as 18 Hz by NASA. This was why Tandy had seen a ghostly figure—it was an optical illusion caused by his eyeballs resonating. The room was exactly half a wavelength in length, and the desk was in the centre, thus causing a standing wave which caused the vibration of the foil
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Tandy knew the area had a reputation - also there are no psychological effects from true-infrasound (thats low frequency and low intensitiy - below the threashold of hearing). If you read all the published data (from the proper studies) they all use very high amplitudes of low-frequency sound where the level of sound is almost painful to listen to. This is nothing like what tandy described in a quiet room......

As far as I am aware, there are no psychological effects of sub-threashold infrasound on the brain. There are effects of 'cusp of hearing sound' but this is merely mis-perception.

Also, the NASA report did not use infrasound - just actual physical vibration of given frequencies and its actually quiet a hodege-podge of a study and often mis understood.
 
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