Ghislaine Maxwell

[Bob001]

Yeah. Elizabeth Loftus is a well-recognized authority on this topic. I wonder to what extent it could backfire on Maxwell if Loftus gives a professional opinion that the testimony does not run a high risk of being a false memory.
.....

There is no chance that the defense would hire her without knowing precisely how she will testify in support of their case, as she has hundreds of times before. The prosecution will likely try to minimize her testimony by emphasizing that she has no particular knowledge regarding this particular case.

 

[Bob001]

True, but what Darat says is valid and pertinent too.

Even in non-trivial instances in the extremely recent past, rational adults can be frighteningly prone to false memory. There have been countless psychological studies where, for example, they've engineered it for a subject to be walking through a park (perhaps on their way to what they believe is the test they're going to be asked to take), when all of a sudden a man appears from nowhere, pushes a woman to the ground right in front of them, robs the woman, and runs off (in a scenario set up by the investigators, of course).
......

Those studies have been well-publicized. But they are about brief exposures to confusing events, or about circumstances where someone is coached to believe or "remember" something that didn't happen or happened differently. But Maxwell's accusers knew her, they knew Epstein, and their experiences extended over months, even years. I don't seem how the two are comparable.

What is more likely is that women who felt shame and fear as teenage girls are realizing as adults that they were abused and assaulted. But that's a reinterpretation of events, not a new or different memory.

 

[Darat]

What Bob001 said.

We aren't talking about girls having trivial memory failures about where they left their car keys. They are making accusations of being repeatedly raped, sexually assaulted and/or sex-trafficked by people they knew personally. Those kinds of memories, if they are false, do not arise spontaneously - they would have to be coached in much the same way the children and young people at the centre of the 1980s Satanic Panic were coached into "remembering" things that never happened by clueless child psychologists using flawed techniques and planted suggestions. These girls have not woken up one morning and suddenly, falsely, remembered they were repeatedly raped, or repeatedly sex-trafficked over a period of months and years.

In the sense you are using "spontaneously" they very much do.

 

[Vixen]

I understand why they want to and false memories is something that exists and is often poorly understood. However, I don't think it should be allowed as a general point. If the defence wants to claim that victim X is suffering from false memories, they need to have an expert explain specifically why that victim's account is a false memory, not that it could be a false memory.

I agree with you. Whilst every defendant has a right to defend themselves, I despise Maxwell for trying to bring in this type of nonsense, designed purely to convince the jury that an 'expert' [a psychologist in this case] can tell when a witness is lying er, has a 'false memory.

 

[Vixen]

What Bob001 said.

We aren't talking about girls having trivial memory failures about where they left their car keys. They are making accusations of being repeatedly raped, sexually assaulted and/or sex-trafficked by people they knew personally. Those kinds of memories, if they are false, do not arise spontaneously - they would have to be coached in much the same way the children and young people at the centre of the 1980s Satanic Panic were coached into "remembering" things that never happened by clueless child psychologists using flawed techniques and planted suggestions. These girls have not woken up one morning and suddenly, falsely, remembered they were repeatedly raped, or repeatedly sex-trafficked over a period of months and years.

We do not even know if the satanic ritual claims were false. Small children are simply not believed. In face of no provable evidence, it doesn't mean it never happened.

 

[carlitos]

We do not even know if the satanic ritual claims were false. Small children are simply not believed. In face of no provable evidence, it doesn't mean it never happened.

If anyone would like to discuss the Satanic Panic, they are welcome to start or resurrect a topic on it. Please don't do so here.

 

[smartcooky]

In the sense you are using "spontaneously" they very much do.

Examples?

 

[Darat]

Examples?

Some in the article I linked to.

 

[LondonJohn]

Yeah. Elizabeth Loftus is a well-recognized authority on this topic. I wonder to what extent it could backfire on Maxwell if Loftus gives a professional opinion that the testimony does not run a high risk of being a false memory.

In other related stuff, I noticed that some people I know on Facebook have started saying that the trial is being suppressed by the powers that be! Why, they ask, is the Rittenhouse trial splashed across all the media but nobody is talking about the ongoing Maxwell trial.

I pointed out that the Illuminati cunningly put the trial in the future which is why we don’t know what is going on. Needless to say, I had the last laugh.

Don't be blue, Peter!

 

[LondonJohn]

I agree with you. Whilst every defendant has a right to defend themselves, I despise Maxwell for trying to bring in this type of nonsense, designed purely to convince the jury that an 'expert' [a psychologist in this case] can tell when a witness is lying er, has a 'false memory.

No, you (rather predictably) misunderstand.

Firstly, false memory syndrome has repeatedly been shown to be a genuine phenomenon (contrary to your snipe at it by way of using inverted commas).

And secondly, there's a very important difference between a) lying and b) false memory syndrome. They're two entirely separate and different things. If a person is lying, it necessarily means that they know that what they're saying is false. But if a person has been afflicted by false memory syndrome, they genuinely believe they're being sincere and truthful.

If lie detectors were a fail-safe tool, liars would fail the test.... but people suffering from false memory syndrome would pass the test.

 

[LondonJohn]

Those studies have been well-publicized. But they are about brief exposures to confusing events, or about circumstances where someone is coached to believe or "remember" something that didn't happen or happened differently. But Maxwell's accusers knew her, they knew Epstein, and their experiences extended over months, even years. I don't seem how the two are comparable.

Oh I fully agree that the two scenarios are very far apart, and that it far less likely to be behind the recollections of victims in the Maxwell case.

My example was merely intended to point out that, in a general sense, false memory syndrome is provably a genuine phenomenon in instances with much more gravity than "losing the car keys".

And the second intention of my post was to offer my opinion that 1) it's entirely fair and right that the defence should be allowed to call Loftus as an expert witness in the Maxwell trial, so that the court can at least assess the evidence/testimony in the light of Loftus' opinion; and 2) I'd go so far as to suggest that any convictions against Maxwell might be relatively easy for the defence to appeal if an expert in false memory syndrome were to have been prevented from appearing in court.

What is more likely is that women who felt shame and fear as teenage girls are realizing as adults that they were abused and assaulted. But that's a reinterpretation of events, not a new or different memory.

I fully agree with everything you've written here. And I did say in my earlier post on this matter that IMO the court would reject any notions of false memory syndrome in this trial, for the reason you've given here plus the sheer number of women who've come forward with accusations against Maxwell.

 

[Orphia Nay]

I fully agree with everything you've written here. And I did say in my earlier post on this matter that IMO the court would reject any notions of false memory syndrome in this trial, for the reason you've given here plus the sheer number of women who've come forward with accusations against Maxwell.

Surely higher numbers of complaints mean a higher likelihood of false memories in one or some of them.

I'm not implying mass hysteria, but just that ideas can be contagious.

Disclaimer: I'm not aware of how many complainants there are, but there look like a dozen or so after a brief look at Wikipedia.

I don't think we can make blanket statements about the truth of the memories in all cases.

 

[smartcooky]

Some in the article I linked to.

OK

"An example of a false memory is believing you started the washing machine before you left for work, only to come home and find you didn’t."

Another example of a false memory is believing you were grounded for the first time for not washing dishes when you were 12, but your mom tells you it was because you were disrespectful to her — and it wasn’t the first time.

Seriouslly? You think these examples are anytihng like what is being discussed here? You think false memories of being repeatedly sex trafficed, and repeatedly raped and sexually assaulted over a period of years, could arise all by themselves? Really?

False memories aren’t rare. Everyone has them. They range from small and trivial, like where you swear you put your keys last night, to significant, like how an accident happened or what you saw during a crime.

These are NOT false memories, these are minor cases of misremembering things that actually happened...

- you did leave your keys somewhere, just not where you thought you left them

- you did fill the washing machine, you just misremembering pressing the start button

- you were grounded when you were 12, you just got the reason wrong.

What is being discussed here is remembering things that Maxwell is trying to claim never happened; claiming that the victims are falsely remembering traumatic experiences that they have unintentionally made from whole cloth. You link does not contains any cases like this.

This is all complete and utter BS. There are ZERO examples I have ever heard of where a person has falsely remembered being repeatedly raped and sexually assaulted over a period of years, where it turned out that the memories the victim remembered were spontaneously remembered and not coached by some nefarious psychology quack.

ETA: Maxwell's defence team has not brought in Elizabeth Loftus to testify that the victims might have misremembered where they left their car keys

 

[Bob001]

Surely higher numbers of complaints mean a higher likelihood of false memories in one or some of them.

I'm not implying mass hysteria, but just that ideas can be contagious.

Disclaimer: I'm not aware of how many complainants there are, but there look like a dozen or so after a brief look at Wikipedia.

I don't think we can make blanket statements about the truth of the memories in all cases.

You could take a moment to educate yourself. The charges against Maxwell are based on reports by four adult women about what she and Epstein did to them as teenagers.

In a 24-page second superseding indictment, prosecutors alleged that from 1994 to 2004, Maxwell “assisted, facilitated, and contributed” to Epstein’s abuse of minor girls by recruiting them, grooming them, and ultimately sexually abusing the victims herself.

The victims were as young as 14 years old when she and Epstein sexually abused them, prosecutors contend.

Both Epstein and Maxwell knew that some of the victims were minors, the prosecutors say. And as part of her alleged scheme, prosecutors say, Maxwell worked with Epstein to entice the minor victims to travel to his luxury residences across the globe.

https://news.yahoo.com/ghislane-maxwell-trial-starts-monday-093050067.html

There's no doubt that Epstein engaged in extensive sex trafficking and abuse for many years, and Maxwell helped him. The question at hand is what she did or didn't do with regard to these four specific women. Federal prosecutors don't go to trial unless they have a strong case.

 

[smartcooky]

You could take a moment to educate yourself. The charges against Maxwell are based on reports by four adult women about what she and Epstein did to them as teenagers.

https://news.yahoo.com/ghislane-maxwell-trial-starts-monday-093050067.html

In a 24-page second superseding indictment, prosecutors alleged that from 1994 to 2004, Maxwell “assisted, facilitated, and contributed” to Epstein’s abuse of minor girls by recruiting them, grooming them, and ultimately sexually abusing the victims herself.

There's no doubt that Epstein engaged in extensive sex trafficking and abuse for many years, and Maxwell helped him. The question at hand is what she did or didn't do with regard to these four specific women. Federal prosecutors don't go to trial unless they have a strong case.

That is an absolute crapload of false memories (four victims over a period of ten years!!) that would have to have somehow spontaneously arisen, without anyone coaching them to "remember". The likelihood of that happening is microscopically tiny.

 

[Planigale]

Surely higher numbers of complaints mean a higher likelihood of false memories in one or some of them.

I'm not implying mass hysteria, but just that ideas can be contagious.

Disclaimer: I'm not aware of how many complainants there are, but there look like a dozen or so after a brief look at Wikipedia.

I don't think we can make blanket statements about the truth of the memories in all cases.

The problem is all memories are 'constructed' and reconstructed*. It is easy to influence the detail of the memory. Accepting Epstein raped the girls. The detail of whether Maxwell was present of not is certainly influenceable. Perhaps someone walked in on the act and backed out again, was that Maxwell? There has been lots of discussion on the internet, it would certainly be possible that witnesses may have had contact with each other directly or indirectly and influenced each others memories. It is easy for police interviews to be directive. "Do you know who walked in on you whilst Epstein was raping you? Was it Maxwell who walked in? We know she did in other cases. Did you see Maxwell's face?" Coaching does not have to been conscious or intended for it to have happened. There has been a slip in the questioning from who was it? to it was Maxwell but can you confirm this?

Most miscarriages of justice are based on eye witness testimony. Certainly consistencies in details between witnesses who have had no contact even indirectly is supportive, but my guess is the defence will be looking for commonalities, do they have the same legal representatives, therapists, are they members of common face book groups even anonymously.

Remember that Maxwell is not being tried for Rape. The trial is on trafficking facilitation etc. So it is going to be lots of peripheral details, was it Maxwell who booked the plane tickets? Who asked her to book the plane tickets? Was she in the room? Did she help with make up? Did she advise on what dress to wear, what to pack? It is not going to be did she go down on you?

*Each time you recall the event you reconstruct the memory.

 

[Darat]

That is an absolute crapload of false memories (four victims over a period of ten years!!) that would have to have somehow spontaneously arisen, without anyone coaching them to "remember". The likelihood of that happening is microscopically tiny.

Who has said all these claims are all false memories?

 

[Vixen]

No, you (rather predictably) misunderstand.

Firstly, false memory syndrome has repeatedly been shown to be a genuine phenomenon (contrary to your snipe at it by way of using inverted commas).

And secondly, there's a very important difference between a) lying and b) false memory syndrome. They're two entirely separate and different things. If a person is lying, it necessarily means that they know that what they're saying is false. But if a person has been afflicted by false memory syndrome, they genuinely believe they're being sincere and truthful.

If lie detectors were a fail-safe tool, liars would fail the test.... but people suffering from false memory syndrome would pass the test.

The issue of 'false memory' might be relevant in someone bringing a child sex abuse case many years later. Then Loftus' hypothesis holds very true that one fills in the missing gaps in retrospect, whilst trying to retrieve the ephemeral memories, possibly even from a time when you did not have the vocabulary to describe what exactly happened.

In the case of women aged between 14 to 17 I am not sure it is appropriate to label their testimonies as 'false memories'. Sound like a cynical attempt to get off the charges by appealing to the jury to dismiss the witness's testimonies as being unreliable, as with a child's or someone not quite mentis compos. That is insulting and disrespectful to the witness IMV.

There are perfectly adequate ways of weighing up evidence and the credibility of witnesses, without resorting to psychological skullduggery.

 

[LondonJohn]

The issue of 'false memory' might be relevant in someone bringing a child sex abuse case many years later. Then Loftus' hypothesis holds very true that one fills in the missing gaps in retrospect, whilst trying to retrieve the ephemeral memories, possibly even from a time when you did not have the vocabulary to describe what exactly happened.

In the case of women aged between 14 to 17 I am not sure it is appropriate to label their testimonies as 'false memories'. Sound like a cynical attempt to get off the charges by appealing to the jury to dismiss the witness's testimonies as being unreliable, as with a child's or someone not quite mentis compos. That is insulting and disrespectful to the witness IMV.

There are perfectly adequate ways of weighing up evidence and the credibility of witnesses, without resorting to psychological skullduggery.

Then we can all be thankful that you're not a criminal-court judge.

 

[Vixen]

You could take a moment to educate yourself. The charges against Maxwell are based on reports by four adult women about what she and Epstein did to them as teenagers.

https://news.yahoo.com/ghislane-maxwell-trial-starts-monday-093050067.html

There's no doubt that Epstein engaged in extensive sex trafficking and abuse for many years, and Maxwell helped him. The question at hand is what she did or didn't do with regard to these four specific women. Federal prosecutors don't go to trial unless they have a strong case.

..or there has been a lot of publicity and sensationalism.