Ghislaine Maxwell

Mojo said:
If you cast your mind back, you might remember that you were suggesting that she should get preferential treatment because of her background.
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Different context.

The context re occupational choices was to do with the level of risk a person is willing to take. Presumably the higher the risk, the higher the likelihood of higher returns than playing safe.
 
Vixen said:
Different context.

The context re occupational choices was to do with the level of risk a person is willing to take. Presumably the higher the risk, the higher the likelihood of higher returns than playing safe.
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You’re getting perilously close to “they were asking for it”.
 
Mojo said:
You’re getting perilously close to “they were asking for it”.
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Asking for what? I thought they were paid sex workers who continuously went back and forth of their own volition. Don't pay attention to all that trafficking nonsense.

I mean it's not like they were under-age or anything. They were only technically children. By technically I mean they are not considered adults under the law so it's perfectly acceptable to shag them.

As the French would say, le shrug.
 
Vixen said:
IF it actually happened. The fact that Maxwell was Epstein's girlfriend is not proof she trafficked underage 'girls' as you call them.
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1. That is a strawman - literally no-one is arguing that. The fact that there are numerous witnesses who have seen her traffick under-aged girls, and who have been the victims of her trafficking, and the fact that she lied about all of it in her deposition (and have you actually read it yet?), are very, very strong indicators that she did exactly what she has been accused of.

2. Why is the word girls in scare quotes? Women who are below the of age consent ARE girls - morally, ethically and legally. Yeah, don't bother answering, I know exactly why - its another of your feeble attempts to minimise what Maxwell did... if you can pretend these victims weren't vulnerable under aged girls, you can pretend what Maxwell did was not very serious.

Vixen said:
Stop trying to put a spin on what I said.
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No spin. It is exactly what you were doing. What you are doing now is trying to walk it back.

Mojo said:
You’re getting perilously close to “they were asking for it”.
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Perilously close? That's very generous of you.

She has been victim-blaming almost from the get-go.
 
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gnome said:
How many trafficking victims before a "monster" isn't too strong a word?
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Good point.


jimbob said:
Apart from TRAFFICKING CHILDREN FOR SEX she was OK?

I suspect not, based on other credible accusations, but it's like a sick punchline to that old joke

" Do they call you that ....but you **** ONE goat..."

"She arranged for scores of vulnerable women to be abused and all anyone bothers about is the handful of times she's being accused of trafficking children."
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"But you **** a small number of goats"
 
Belz... said:
Again you seem to struggle with language. "Girl" is the word we use for underage human females. So why the scare quotes?
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Epstein's victims:

Fourteen women were there in person and spoke, 10 of them using their legal names.

The testimonies were full of anger, sadness and bitter disappointment at a legal system they felt had failed them. The accusations against Epstein ranged from sexual abuse, sexual assault, rape and sex trafficking. At least five women told the court they were teenagers at the time of their assaults, the youngest 14 years old. https://time.com/5662688/jeffrey-epstein-accusers-court/

By now, the contours of Teresa Helm’s account have become familiar. She was 22 when she met the man that she now knows was Jeffrey Epstein.
The five women who sued Mr. Epstein’s estate last week include two sisters, Maria and Annie Farmer, who say that he abused them in the 1990s and have been outspoken about his behavior.
Annie Farmer said that she was 16 when Mr. Epstein brought her to his New Mexico ranch, where he groped and harassed her, including crawling into bed with her and pressing his genitals against her. Maria Farmer said that he assaulted her in Ohio on a separate occasion.

Maria Farmer and the other three women who sued Mr. Epstein’s estate were adults when, they say, the abuse occurred.

One, Juliette Bryant, was 20 and an aspiring model when Mr. Epstein flew her from her home in South Africa to the Virgin Islands, where he had a home. Once she was there, according to her lawsuit, he forced her into “extreme and repeated sexual abuse,” including multiple rapes.

Sarah Ransome was 22 when she first met the convicted sex offender in 2006.
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Stop using the term 'girls' and 'children' to describe fully grown adults.

What Epstein did was heinous enough, without needing sensationalism and embellishment. Why would anyone have the need for fake news to make their blood boil. Let your blood boil that he raped women.
 
Mojo said:
You’re getting perilously close to “they were asking for it”.
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No, it is called being 'realistic'. In the real world, men who use sex workers are not generally nice people. They are not respectful of women, courteous and nor are they feminists. Many of them are rapists, misogynists, thugs, thieves and thoroughly nasty pieces of work. Stop trying to make out that being a sex worker is a job where women command respect and workplace safety guarantees. Mostly, they do not. Maybe the high-class 'call girls' and escort agency women are safer physically, but on a psychological and emotional level it is invariably damaging. Why do you think so many sex workers are hardened characters? Because they have seen the worst side of people.

What Epstein did was horrendous. They women he abused obviously were not 'asking for it', but many went back time and again and Giuffre stayed for five years, despite the seriously dangerous situation and harm to their health and well-being.

That is not being judgmental.
 
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smartcooky said:
1. That is a strawman - literally no-one is arguing that. The fact that there are numerous witnesses who have seen her traffick under-aged girls, and who have been the victims of her trafficking, and the fact that she lied about all of it in her deposition (and have you actually read it yet?), are very, very strong indicators that she did exactly what she has been accused of.

2. Why is the word girls in scare quotes? Women who are below the of age consent ARE girls - morally, ethically and legally. Yeah, don't bother answering, I know exactly why - its another of your feeble attempts to minimise what Maxwell did... if you can pretend these victims weren't vulnerable under aged girls, you can pretend what Maxwell did was not very serious.



No spin. It is exactly what you were doing. What you are doing now is trying to walk it back.



Perilously close? That's very generous of you.

She has been victim-blaming almost from the get-go.
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I am assuming that one of the accusers in the Maxwell case is Jennifer Aroaz, who claims she was fifteen when she was raped by Epstein. She names FOUR women in all, including Maxwell, together with a housekeeper and two other women on Epstein's staff. Now, I am sure she is telling the truth to the best of her knowledge and it is courageous and brave of her to do so. However, Epstein's property was a mansion, with several floors and numerous rooms. It was also a workplace. The housekeeper, if indeed she was in cahoots with Epstein is likely to claim she was there to work and had no knowledge of what went on in the rest of the house. At the end of the day the court will decide which version it prefers as more likely. Playing devil's advocate, none of these four women are going to confess to having 'groomed' her, so it will need more than her say so to secure a conviction.
 
Belz... said:
Did you even read the part you quoted? 14 is not "fully grown".

Why are you so adamant about making them out to be adults?
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If only two out of the fourteen women who were due to appear in court for Epstein's hearing (out of a total of 23 accusers) were, as claimed, to have been under 18, that does not make them all 'girls' nor even children. That is misleading. In any case, as Epstein died and in his 2007 trial they all received compensation, many are estopped from going forward to be included in Maxwell's trial, because of the settlement. Maxwell was not charged in the aforementioned Epstein trial, so stop conflating Epstein's accusers as being Maxwell's victims, as she has never been tried in court. There will be four accusers being heard in November, thus it is premature for you to label her guilty as charged for Epstein's crimes. The onus is on the proscution to show burden of proof and given that this goes back to 1994, it'll be hard to dig up evidence from that long ago.
 
Vixen said:
If only two out of the fourteen women who were due to appear in court for Epstein's hearing (out of a total of 23 accusers) were, as claimed, to have been under 18, that does not make them all 'girls' nor even children.
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Who said anything about "all"? It's enough that some were in order to say that some of his victims were children (per the English meaning of the word).
 
Vixen said:
Stop using the term 'girls' and 'children' to describe fully grown adults.

What Epstein did was heinous enough, without needing sensationalism and embellishment. Why would anyone have the need for fake news to make their blood boil. Let your blood boil that he raped women.
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Nice bit of cherry picking to exclude actual girls.

FYI

Victoria Guiffre was under age, i.e. A GIRL when she was trafficked by Maxwell
Jennifer Aroaz was under age, i.e. A GIRL when she was trafficked by Maxwell
Annie Farmer was under age, i.e. A GIRL when she was trafficked by Maxwell

STOP LYING about what other posters are saying!! WE CAN ALL READ!!
 
Vixen said:
I am assuming that one of the accusers in the Maxwell case is Jennifer Aroaz, who claims she was fifteen when she was raped by Epstein. She names FOUR women in all, including Maxwell, together with a housekeeper and two other women on Epstein's staff.
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Only Maxwell is on trial, What the other three did is a subject for another thread, therefore irrelevant to this discussion.

Vixen said:
Now, I am sure she is telling the truth to the best of her knowledge and it is courageous and brave of her to do so. However, Epstein's property was a mansion, with several floors and numerous rooms. It was also a workplace. The housekeeper, if indeed she was in cahoots with Epstein is likely to claim she was there to work and had no knowledge of what went on in the rest of the house. At the end of the day the court will decide which version it prefers as more likely. Playing devil's advocate, none of these four women are going to confess to having 'groomed' her, so it will need more than her say so to secure a conviction.
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Throwing shade on victim statements again I see.

I really don't undertsand how you can live with yourself.
 
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