Ghislaine Maxwell

[smartcooky]

This is a total lie.

No, it isn't

I have never said anything about what the French judicial view of sex crimes is.

Yes you did, you absolutely did! I will remind you of what you said...

France would not have extradited her, and the traditional French view of the sort of activities she is accused of would have been a gallic shrug of shoulder and comment on anglo-saxon prudity.

Let me remind you that the "activities she is accused of", i.e. multiple occasions of trafficking minors for sex... are sex crimes!

You said in your quote above that the French would not have extradited her (extradition is in the purview of the French Judiciary), and that their response to such activities (sex crimes) would be a Gallic "shrug.. ergo, you in fact did at least imply what you thought of the French Judicial view of sex crimes

Q.E.D.

I suspect I am the only one on this thread who has actually been subject to a sexual assault as a teenager so do not all you old white men dare to lecture me on rape.

Arrogant and presumptuous!

I might be an "old white man" but my daughter was a victim of sexual assault as a teenager, and I was there for her when she went through the traumatic experience of the aftermath, so don't YOU ******* dare lecture ME about rape!!!

 

[jimbob]

No, it isn't



Yes you did, you absolutely did! I will remind you of what you said...



Let me remind you that the "activities she is accused of", i.e. multiple occasions of trafficking minors for sex... are sex crimes! You said in your quote above that the French would not have extradited her (extradition is in the purview of the French Judiciary), and that their response to such activities (sex crimes) would be a Gallic "shrug.. ergo, you in fact did at least imply what you thought of the French Judicial view of sex crimes

Q.E.D.

And rape

 

[smartcooky]

And rape

I left that out because it is not part of the DoJ indicment, and I didn't want to let Planigale try to weasel out of what she said on a technicality.

But yes, she has also been accused of raping a minor in a civil action.

 

[theprestige]

This is a total lie.

Please take this back.

It is no lie, and I won't take it back.

You really did say that the French judiciary would be unlikely to extradite because they don't consider trafficking minors for sexual assault and rape to be a serious issue. "Anglo-saxony prudery", was how you described their opinion of the charges.

This is just resorting to ad hominem because you lack the ability to make an evidence based argument.

My argument is based on the evidence of posts you actually made.

I have never said anything about what the French judicial view of sex crimes is.

You absolutely and explicitly said something about what the French judicial view of these particular crimes is.

I have certainly never said anything to defend those who commit sexual assault.

No, you just keep trying to minimize the enormity of what Maxwell's been accused of.

I suspect I am the only one on this thread who has actually been subject to a sexual assault as a teenager so do not all you old white men dare to lecture me on rape.

Stop trying to personalize the debate. Stop trying to substitute ageism, racism, and sexism for rational arguments.

If you cannot sustain a discussion without resorting to blatant lies you have lost the argument.

I think the only really blatant lie so far is you saying you never said anything about the French judicial view of sex crimes.

If anyone should be personally outraged here, it's the French, whom you characterized as dismissing child sex trafficking with a gallic shrug as anglo-saxon prudery.

 

[Leftus]

The right not to be arbitrarily imprisoned without being convicted is a right. Like all rights it has limits.

It is claimed above she has limitless wealth. That is nonsense, no one has limitless wealth. It is claimed she has secret Swiss bank accounts. But under tax treaties the uS can request details of swiss accounts held by US residents and citizens. In addition any account over $10,000 has to be registered with the IRS. What I don't see is the IRS bringing a case for all this secret wealth not declared. The prosecution just claim this, there is no evidence. There is evidence that Maxwell had to work and was dependent on others for financial support (admittedly for an extravagant life style). I am pretty sure that at the end of the day I will be right that maxwell does not have limitless wealth. Since the FBI seems able to steal from hackers and bug the phones of real supercriminals do people really think an elderly woman can evade the FBI? She is not Jason Bourne.

Most of the writs that people attempted to serve, were civil writs avoiding service is not a crime, and not one she has been charged with. She left the US on occasion under her own name, and returned. It would have been easy for the US to pick her up by putting her on a watch list. They did not because she was allowed to travel.

Epstein seems to have been a thoroughly bad person. I have no doubt he procured and had sex with young women some of whom were under age of consent. I have little doubt that Maxwell when employed by Epstein had knowledge of this, and may have actively participated in procuring, and possibly in sexual activities. However she is not charged with rape or sexual assault. I think she is probably guilty of some or all of the offences she is charged with.

To claim she is an ongoing danger to the public is claiming she is a predatory serial lesbian rapist. This is excessively unusual. There is no evidence of her participating in criminal acts since she ceased her association with Epstein in 2004ish. She is not charged with rape or sexual assault.

Any person is a flight risk. I think the prosecution are exaggerating the risk to obtain leverage for a plea deal. I do not think she is a genuine threat to the public. If released you do not need to lock up your daughters!

Maxwell is an exemplar of problems with the US judicial system. Over use of pre-trial detention. The use of pre-trial detention to leverage plea deals. The overuse of plea deals. The poor quality of facilities for detention especially pre-trial. Pre-trial detention if used should be the least onerous possible. Facilities for those in pre-trial detention should not be worse than those once convicted.

I would guess once convicted Maxwell will be in a low security federal prison, with no worries that an elite squad of ex-SAS mercenaries will break her out using her limitless wealth and spirit her safely to France. I also guess all those civil suits will disappear once it becomes apparent all her wealth has disappeared in legal fees.

That's quite a few words to not identify the due process you claim she was denied. The "right to not be imprisoned" is not real, and it's called bail, to which she has had 5 hearings.

Claims that she can avoid the FBI are bolstered by the fact she was doing that right before she was caught. Had she surrendered to the authorities when she first heard about the warrants, you might have something. But she went on that lam.

Yes, everyone is a flight risk, which is why most people respond to cash bail. How much money would she have to front to guarantee her appearance? Most people who put up their life savings, mother's home, or whatever have a compelling reason to appear. They don't have the resources to flee to someplace and remain there and live comfortably. So to ensure her appearance, something she has been actively avoiding, she would have to give up, almost everything. But then you would scream about excessive bail, and we would be back here.

She has the rights to a bail hearing. She has had 5 of them, and couldn't offer up some sort of insurance of her return. So what due process is being violated? None of the "the whole system is corrupt" nonsense, but evidence that a due process to which she is entitled has been denied.

 

[Vixen]

Right. So you are simply willing to lie about the facts. Go right ahead. The facts remain that Maxwell did traffic minors and did abuse minors.

Clutch as many pearls as you wish. The facts are not going away.

Would that 'trafficking' include Virginia Guiffre's flight to London to visit Prince Andrew? On UK soil, she was not a minor.

 

[Vixen]

Did it occur to you that this wealth they know about, they had to investigate her finances to find it? She did not reveal where it was or how wealthy she was. There is no guarantee that they have found all of it.

In any case, even there is a remote chance they have found all of it, she has friends and people who are well motivated to not have her brought to trial. They would whisk her away to France in a heartbeat.



Eye witness evidence given by strangers, e.g., someone who witnessed a murder or an armed robbery, or who was even raped by a stranger, can be erroneous, but that isn't what we are talking about here. These witnesses were raped and trafficked to Epstein by someone they knew, and someone whose face was well known in the circles they operated in.
This is just one of over a dozen witnesses

https://www.fox5dc.com/news/woman-c...es-willing-to-testify-just-as-evil-as-epstein

A woman who claims Ghislaine Maxwell raped her dozens of times – beginning when she was just 14 years old – says she is willing to take the stand and testify against Jeffrey Epstein’s ex-girlfriend.

In an exclusive interview with Fox News, Jane Doe, who wishes to protect her identity, said Maxwell sexually abused her beginning in 1991 in Florida. She said the abuse continued until she was 16.

Maxwell was arrested Thursday on federal charges for facilitating and participating in sexual abuse acts with minors,

“She did rape me. I would say it’s more than 20 or 30 times,” she said. “She is just as evil as Jeffrey Epstein … She is a rapist.”
​

There is ZERO chance of mistaken identity in this case.



Do you understand what a Federal Grand Jury is... you know, the court body that indicted her based on evidence presented against her?




Not always. Bail can be denied for a number of reasons (see 18 USC § 3142)

1. The suspect is a danger to the public
2. The suspect is a flight risk
3. To keep the suspect from harm by others
4. To keep the suspect from self harm

Maxwell ticks all four boxes

Serial rapists are often refused bail, and Maxwell is one of them.




LOL. I wondered when someone might try to play the anti-Semitism card.

Maxwell doesn't have a penis and therefore cannot 'rape'.

 

[Vixen]

This debate is not about guilt, its about whether she should be granted bail or not.

IMO

1. She represents a danger to the public

This is especially so when it comes to young girls. Don't be taken in by the charming, attractive exterior. Beneath that facade is a scheming, calculating liar, and a heart of pure stone.

2. She is an extreme flight risk, and I mean really extreme.

Firstly, she has a proven track record of evading authorities, repeatedly evading subpoenas, and of leaving the US to do so.

Secondly, she has the means to escape the country. For all intents and purposes, Maxwell has unlimited resources, and an extensive network of very powerful people who would help her to escape.

Thirdly, she has the motive to escape the country, the charges she faces carry a potential sentence of 35 years - that is effectively a life sentence for a person of her age (59)

Fourthly, if she is allowed out on bail, that will give her the opportunity to escape the country. If you think that surveillance and an ankle bracelet will stop someone with her resources from escaping, you are very naive.

Fifthly, even if she does not escape the US straight away, she is very, very good at staying under the radar and living in such a way that will make her difficult to find. There are plenty of places where you can cross the Canadian-American border without being seen or detected.* When they caught her in July last year, they had tracked her through cellphone use - she won't make that mistake again, it will be burner phones and contact through third parties if she gets out and goes on the run again.

Finally, the fact that she has supposedly offered to renounce her French citizenship means nothing - its just a blind that only a fool would fall for. She could easily do this, still leave the US on a private flight to France, and once she lands there, turn herself in to Affaires Etrangeres and reapply for French citizenship. She would then be untouchable.

That fact that the prosecutors and the FBI have similar opinions to mine doesn't surprise me in the least.


*A few years ago, Some friends and I took a private boat trip across Lake Huron from Alpena MI to Penetang ON, a trip of about 260km. No-one questioned us when we arrived, or when we got back to Alpena a week later. We went from the US to Canada and back to the US totally undetected.

No, no, no. Epstein was a serious danger to young women. You cannot try someone for someone else's crimes. How do you know that Maxwell was not also a victim of Epstein? Her activities started and stopped during her association with this man. Maxwell undoubtedly procured hundreds of women for sex with Epstein, some four allegedly underage at the time, probably more. However, Guiffre and many of the other sex workers also procured dozens if not hundreds of girls for Epstein and his high society friends to abuse. No, Maxwell is not a nice person, her father was a ruthless crook, her boyfriend Epstein also a crook, fraud and swindler. However, one should avoid the mistake of making her the proxy for Epstein and her father.

 

[Vixen]

Not necessarily.

https://turnto10.com/news/local/suspect-in-fatal-north-attleborough-shooting-heads-to-court
https://www.wpri.com/video/cranston-murder-suspect-held-without-bail/6156486/
https://www.koin.com/news/crime/records-suspect-arrested-at-protest-one-week-before-deadly-stabbing/
https://kobi5.com/news/local-news/j...l-after-making-first-court-appearance-148278/
https://www.galioninquirer.com/news/64967/morrow-county-murder-suspect-remains-held-without-bond
https://www.telegram.com/story/news...hooting-suspect-held-without-bail/7485957002/
https://www.actionnewsnow.com/conte...cing-suspect-held-without-bail-574350541.html
https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-colorado-shooting-idUKKBN2BH0DV
https://www.wnct.com/on-your-side/c...-turns-himself-in-is-being-held-without-bond/

Maxwell is not being given special treatment here.

These all seem to be rough types who can tolerate the harsh exiguous conditions of jail. Someone more fragrant like Maxwell from a sheltered pampered life is likely to be seriously psychologically damaged and anguished by such conditions. I think she should obviously be imprisoned but at least allow her secure house arrest of some kind of hotel where she can be monitored for suicide or escape.

 

[Vixen]

I never claimed every person charged with murder should not be subject to pre-trial detention. So your post is irrelevant.

Maxwell is charged with trafficking, perjury, facilitation etc. but not rape or sexual assault. No violent crime.

Given that not every person charged with a crime as serious as murder is subject to pre-trial detention certainly the crimes Maxwell is charged with do not per se justify pre-trial detention.

I do not think there is a realistic argument that she is a danger to the public in that there are no allegations she has committed any crimes in the last 15+ years. So the sole argument is the flight risk. One that rests on non-evidence based claims by the prosecution, that goes against the historic evidence that Maxwell does not have limitless financial resources, and a belief that James Bond represents real life.

Bear in mind, the 'perjury' relates to her lying during her deposition when Guiffre took her to court for calling her a liar. Well, of course Maxwell was going to deny it, so perjury, maybe, but rather a fine line between that and having the right to not incriminate oneself.

 

[smartcooky]

Maxwell doesn't have a penis and therefore cannot 'rape'.

Wrong!

and

Wrong!

Rape is a type of sexual assault usually involving sexual intercourse or other forms of sexual penetration carried out against a person without that person's consent. The act may be carried out by physical force, coercion, abuse of authority, or against a person who is incapable of giving valid consent, such as one who is unconscious, incapacitated, has an intellectual disability, or is below the legal age of consent. The term rape is sometimes used interchangeably with the term sexual assault​

 

[Darat]

That's a running theme, first with the Epstein case, and now with Maxwell. American prisons are barbaric. Neglect and deprivation is a normal state of affairs. They aren't often the subject of such high profile attention, but prisoners not doing well in prison is not unusual.

Sadly it appears that the result of publicity is not that the system should change but it is hard cheese that she is subject to such conditions.

 

[Ian Osborne]

Wrong!

and

Wrong!

Rape is a type of sexual assault usually involving sexual intercourse or other forms of sexual penetration carried out against a person without that person's consent. The act may be carried out by physical force, coercion, abuse of authority, or against a person who is incapable of giving valid consent, such as one who is unconscious, incapacitated, has an intellectual disability, or is below the legal age of consent. The term rape is sometimes used interchangeably with the term sexual assault​

It's quite the most wrong thing I've read on the interwebs today. All week, in fact. Come to think of it, I don't think I've read a more wrong comment all year.

 

[abaddon]

Would that 'trafficking' include Virginia Guiffre's flight to London to visit Prince Andrew? On UK soil, she was not a minor.

I wasn't referring to that particular case, you would do anything to defend your beloved royals.

 

[abaddon]

Maxwell doesn't have a penis and therefore cannot 'rape'.

One of the most disgusting statements ever posted here.

 

[Matthew Best]

Weirdly, under UK law Vixen is right - only men can be convicted of "rape". But since this case isn't taking place in the UK, I don't see why we should care what UK law says.

 

[Leftus]

These all seem to be rough types who can tolerate the harsh exiguous conditions of jail. Someone more fragrant like Maxwell from a sheltered pampered life is likely to be seriously psychologically damaged and anguished by such conditions. I think she should obviously be imprisoned but at least allow her secure house arrest of some kind of hotel where she can be monitored for suicide or escape.

Why? I'm sorry, but the needs to protect a fragile ego of a rich, privledged member of society isn't really a justification to avoid consequences of her actions. And the cost of playing hide and seek with the police trying to make an arrest is the chance that you might get remanded into custody until your trial.

She posts bond, she steps onto a private yacht and makes landfall in France, which will not, under any circumstances, extradite citizen. No amount of monitoring can prevent that. Short of putting a team of Marshalls on her. And do we do that for everyone, or just the rich, fragile white ones?

 

[Darat]

Why? I'm sorry, but the needs to protect a fragile ego of a rich, privledged member of society isn't really a justification to avoid consequences of her actions. And the cost of playing hide and seek with the police trying to make an arrest is the chance that you might get remanded into custody until your trial.

She posts bond, she steps onto a private yacht and makes landfall in France, which will not, under any circumstances, extradite citizen. No amount of monitoring can prevent that. Short of putting a team of Marshalls on her. And do we do that for everyone, or just the rich, fragile white ones?

But why are the conditions so bad for prisoners on remand?

 

[Matthew Best]

But why are the conditions so bad for prisoners on remand?

That seems like a subject for a separate thread.

 

[Leftus]

But why are the conditions so bad for prisoners on remand?

We really don't know how bad they are, beyond being a jail. Her side says, among other things, it smells like sewage. The jail says it's because she refuses to flush her own toilet.

My guess is that neither the jailers nor the jailed have any incentive to make it better. So, basically, the same reason the projects are absolutely the worse type of housing one can be subject to.

I'm just bothered by the notion that the jail is too stanky for the rich. We common folks, it's fine. But richy rich here needs all 5 stars, at our expense no less. I'm not saying it needs to be unsanitary, but when the jailed have an incentive to make it worse, whose fault is it?