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Ghislaine Maxwell

Vixen said:
These days in Europe, life is just twelve years. For example, if that suspected German guy were to be charged and convicted in Germany for the murder of Madeliene McCann, he would get just twelve years. At least Gordon Brown's UK government brought in the concept of 'whole life tariffs' or 'tariffs' to deal with the most heinous murderers.

So, for Maxwell to get 35 years for sex trafficking of minors seems disproportionate in comparison, but hey, that's America.
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Aside from the fact that the only valid comparison in this instance is the comparison with US State and Federal sentence guidelines for murder.....

... you're also completely wrong in your presentation of sentencing structure across Europe. It's a sheer falsification to claim that "these days in Europe, life is just 12 years".

From what I know for certain wrt England & Wales sentencing guidelines, and from what I understand to be the case across Western Europe at least, 12 years is around the bare minimum time of imprisonment for murder. Most murderers get longer than that. Realise also that if someone is sentenced to, say, "Life, with a minimum of 16 years' imprisonment", this actually means two distinct things: 1) the person will first be considered for parole after 16 years' imprisonment - which in no way implies that the person will actually be granted parole*; and 2) even when the person is released from prison on parole, they will be "on licence" for the whole of the remainder of their lives - this means regular monitoring and home visits, and instant re-imprisonment if they commit even a minor offence.

So.........


* There are plenty of people in prison for murder in England & Wales, for example, who've remained in prison until long, long after their minimum tariff has passed - because each time they've applied for parole they've been turned down (on account of factors such as lack of remorse, lack of engagement with rehabilitation and education courses, poor discipline in prison, and so on).
 
theprestige said:
I don't see the problem.
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Nor do I. If she's convicted on all of the forecast charges in a fair trial, then the sentencing judge* will know that she has engaged in a calculated, manipulative violation of dozens of underage girls, for the sexual gratification of her, Epstein and their.... *clients*. The negative impact on those girls and their life chances adds up to a very very large amount of wrong (and perhaps "evil" might be an appropriate word here).

If she's convicted of those crimes, she'll be entirely deserving of imprisonment until she's either a very old woman or a deceased woman.


* not sure whether there are juries involved in sentencing in federal trials.
 
LondonJohn said:
I take issue (in agreement with Darat) with the notion that anyone/everyone who's incarcerated as a convicted criminal - irrespective of the heinousness of their crimes - should have to live in substandard conditions and/or in fear of their personal safety.
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I never suggested this.

She comes across as an extreme example of white-privilege to the point of ridiculousness. She is used to living the high-life, and was finding remand very difficult (even though she was treated no differently to any other female prisoner on remand). All I did was observe that if she thought things were tough now, just wait till she ends up behind bars in a real women's federal big-house like Danbury.


LondonJohn said:
Nor do I. If she's convicted on all of the forecast charges in a fair trial, then the sentencing judge* will know that she has engaged in a calculated, manipulative violation of dozens of underage girls, for the sexual gratification of her, Epstein and their.... *clients*. The negative impact on those girls and their life chances adds up to a very very large amount of wrong (and perhaps "evil" might be an appropriate word here).

If she's convicted of those crimes, she'll be entirely deserving of imprisonment until she's either a very old woman or a deceased woman.
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Absolutely agree.
 
OTOH, she is currently innocent legally, but is held in solitary confinement, in a cell which is constantly lit, under constant observation. This would be regarded as being inhuman conditions in many countries even for a convicted felon. Even for the US I believe these conditions are limited to the worst suspects held in Guantanamo.
 
Maybe she drifted into the role like a frog being boiled, never experienced the heat as she should have. Not a serial killer lusting for more satisfaction but surely finding the cash flowed freely again as had been her presumption in previous circumstance.
 
Planigale said:
OTOH, she is currently innocent legally
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Like any other criminal suspect under indictment.

Planigale said:
but is held
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Like any other criminal suspect who is considered an extreme flight risk, and has both the means and the motive to flee if given a chance. This woman has fat offshore bank accounts, multiple passports and access to private jets that could take her anywhere in the world.

Planigale said:
in solitary confinement
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For her own protection*

Planigale said:
in a cell which is constantly lit
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For her own protection*

Planigale said:
under constant observation
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For her own protection*

Planigale said:
This would be regarded as being inhuman conditions in many countries even for a convicted felon. Even for the US I believe these conditions are limited to the worst suspects held in Guantanamo.
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If you can show me some constitutional right that is being violated here, please do so, otherwise, it sucks to be Maxwell.

* The conditions under which she is being held are very likely informed by what happened to Epstein. They really screwed the pooch on that one, and I don't believe they are willing to risk that happening again.
 
Planigale said:
OTOH, she is currently innocent legally, but is held in solitary confinement, in a cell which is constantly lit, under constant observation. This would be regarded as being inhuman conditions in many countries even for a convicted felon. Even for the US I believe these conditions are limited to the worst suspects held in Guantanamo.
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I suspect they are extremely sensitive to the possibility of her committing suicide before any trial. To paraphrase Wilde: "to lose one of the two alleged masterminds before there's even a trial may be regarded as a misfortune; to lose both looks like carelessness."
 
Vixen said:
These days in Europe, life is just twelve years. For example, if that suspected German guy were to be charged and convicted in Germany for the murder of Madeliene McCann, he would get just twelve years. At least Gordon Brown's UK government brought in the concept of 'whole life tariffs' or 'tariffs' to deal with the most heinous murderers.

So, for Maxwell to get 35 years for sex trafficking of minors seems disproportionate in comparison, but hey, that's America.
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Life should be life. 35 years for what she did seems fair to me.
 
Planigale said:
OTOH, she is currently innocent legally, but is held in solitary confinement, in a cell which is constantly lit, under constant observation. This would be regarded as being inhuman conditions in many countries even for a convicted felon. Even for the US I believe these conditions are limited to the worst suspects held in Guantanamo.
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According to press reports, she is under video observation. It's not like somebody's sitting outside her cell. A prisoner in jail doesn't have much expectation of privacy. And if it's too bright for her taste, her lawyer can surely get her a comfortable sleep mask.
 
Planigale said:
OTOH, she is currently innocent legally, but is held in solitary confinement, in a cell which is constantly lit, under constant observation. This would be regarded as being inhuman conditions in many countries even for a convicted felon. Even for the US I believe these conditions are limited to the worst suspects held in Guantanamo.
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To be fair, Maxwell is the author of her own misfortune there for doing a bunk and going into hiding the first time round.
 
LondonJohn said:
Aside from the fact that the only valid comparison in this instance is the comparison with US State and Federal sentence guidelines for murder.....

... you're also completely wrong in your presentation of sentencing structure across Europe. It's a sheer falsification to claim that "these days in Europe, life is just 12 years".

From what I know for certain wrt England & Wales sentencing guidelines, and from what I understand to be the case across Western Europe at least, 12 years is around the bare minimum time of imprisonment for murder. Most murderers get longer than that. Realise also that if someone is sentenced to, say, "Life, with a minimum of 16 years' imprisonment", this actually means two distinct things: 1) the person will first be considered for parole after 16 years' imprisonment - which in no way implies that the person will actually be granted parole*; and 2) even when the person is released from prison on parole, they will be "on licence" for the whole of the remainder of their lives - this means regular monitoring and home visits, and instant re-imprisonment if they commit even a minor offence.

So.........


* There are plenty of people in prison for murder in England & Wales, for example, who've remained in prison until long, long after their minimum tariff has passed - because each time they've applied for parole they've been turned down (on account of factors such as lack of remorse, lack of engagement with rehabilitation and education courses, poor discipline in prison, and so on).
Click to expand...

Yes, the EU standard appears to be 12 years for murder, with up to three years added on if 'aggravated'. For example, included prolonged torture, use of a weapon, sexual assault, robbery, etc. However, the convict has a legal right to parole after two-thirds of the sentence has been served, assuming he or she hasn't committed further crimes whilst in jail.

So, 35 years for sex trafficking minors - who were not necessarily traumatised by it - seems a bit steep.
 
Vixen said:
To be fair, Maxwell is the author of her own misfortune there for doing a bunk and going into hiding the first time round.
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To be fair, she's authored more than enough misfortune for others for one lifetime. I don't see any reason to give her back any of the years remaining in her own.
 
Vixen said:
Yes, the EU standard appears to be 12 years for murder, with up to three years added on if 'aggravated'. For example, included prolonged torture, use of a weapon, sexual assault, robbery, etc. However, the convict has a legal right to parole after two-thirds of the sentence has been served, assuming he or she hasn't committed further crimes whilst in jail.

So, 35 years for sex trafficking minors - who were not necessarily traumatised by it - seems a bit steep.
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Jesus Christ. It's like you're signaling virtue to some alien race of misanthropes. Like those douchebags in The Three-Body Problem who actively work for the Centaurians to come destroy human civilization.
 
Vixen said:
Yes, the EU standard appears to be 12 years for murder, with up to three years added on if 'aggravated'. For example, included prolonged torture, use of a weapon, sexual assault, robbery, etc. However, the convict has a legal right to parole after two-thirds of the sentence has been served, assuming he or she hasn't committed further crimes whilst in jail.

So, 35 years for sex trafficking minors - who were not necessarily traumatised by it - seems a bit steep.
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There were multiple crimes with multiple victims committed as part of a conspiracy over a period of years. And who are you to say that teenage girls weren't traumatized?
 
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theprestige said:
To be fair, she's authored more than enough misfortune for others for one lifetime. I don't see any reason to give her back any of the years remaining in her own.
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While I doubt it could be used as a basis for actual sentencing, I think at least as a basis for our own attitude. I think the number of years one has gotten away with something should have a bearing on how sorry one is at the severity of the sentence.

I always wonder, for example, at the outpouring of oh-poor-old-man stuff we sometimes hear when an old torturer or concentration camp guard is hunted down. A 70 year deferral of sentence for your crimes? What a bargain. If it had been offered explicitly at the time, anyone would have signed on in blood.

Maxwell's crimes weren't quite so egregious, but she got away with them and lived high for a long time. I think she has no kick coming if she now regrets the high price.
 
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