smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
Indeed.
Planigale has clearly and obviously minimised Maxwell's crimes in those first and last posts you quoted, I called her on it, and I'm the one who is lying... apparently
Ghislaine Maxwell
- Thread starter Samson
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Indeed.
Planigale has clearly and obviously minimised Maxwell's crimes in those first and last posts you quoted, I called her on it, and I'm the one who is lying... apparently
Only if you think Planigale is actually speaking for France, rather than commenting on what the attitudes there are.
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
Its all part of the narrative though, isn't it? Its the subtle things that the pair of them drop into posts, hinting that what Maxwell is accused of isn't so bad.
'... oh, but in France, they would shrug their shoulders at such Anglo prudishness'
'... but she might have been hiding from the police for "other" reasons'
'... well she probably ran away because she was scared'
'... but maybe she was just "networking" '
'... oh, but those nasty teenagers were probably sexually active anyway'
'... well, why is sex-trafficking an under-aged girl worse than sex-trafficking an adult?'
See how all that works? Its chipping away at the seriousness of these crimes to imply that Maxwell deserves special treatment because of her privilege.
Now they keep claiming that their words are being twisted, misunderstood, misconstrued, but then they go right ahead and keep repeating the same words.
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Traditional French view seems to me to be a "man on the street" kind of viewpoint. Judicial French viewpoint is how the courts view it. The two are not one and the same so, even if I don't agree with Planigales opinion, I can get what he/she meant there.
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
Right. The meaning of the of the "man on the clapham omnibus" is a legal princible
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
I read it as an implied appeal to authority or popularity. She's not speaking for France, she's letting France speak for her.
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
The relevance? Take a peek at the forum subsection header: 'Trials and Errors'. And what does a trial have? It has at least two sides.
Elementary, my dear Watson.
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
I don't think there is any evidence of Planigale minimising anything. Perhaps she and I just see the bigger picture? That in between Maxwell being the height of depravity, stalking young teenage girls and grooming them, sex trafficking them, using and abusing them or alternatively is a pure as the driven snow, perhaps the truth lies somewhere in between? You don't know, she might have been a victim of Epstein, too.
The multiple victims are now women in their mid-thirties and forties. Apart from one, who did go to the police at the time and was shamefully fobbed off, they are only coming out now that Epstein's notoriety has been exposed. Giuffre managed to keep a copy of a polaroid picture of her and Prince Andrew. She knew this was her golden ticket to bring him down. The relationship between a sex worker and his or her client is a transactional one. The client pays, the sex worker performs a service. It is a contract. Inherent in this underworld of sexual marketing is the unspoken rule that a sex worker is discreet and the client's identity remains confidential. It is well known that seasoned sex workers have blackmailed high-profile clients. It could be that in this case, Maxwell did force Giuffre onto the plane to London to liaise with Prince Andrew as a 'sex slave' and she had no choice whether out of fear or because of 'grooming'. You would like the case to be 'evil sex traffickers trafficked young girls for the gratification of unknown seedy men and vritually imprisoned and forced to work, like slave labour. With Maxwell and Epstein's illustrious 'guests' including Mick Jagger, Bill Clinton, Bill Gates, Stepehn Hawkings, some of these sex workers might have found the life style glamourous. Not all sex workers have been forced into it.
If, as Planigale states, they were only civil charges, then avoiding having papers served is not unusual. The onus is on the claimant to get the papers served.
She saw for herself the furore surrounding her ex-boyfriend and the screaming headlines baying for her blood. Why would she turn herself in. As we know she is an arrogant individual who thinks she is untouchable. It is no surprise she went into hiding. It is not proof of guilt.
People are entitled to keep their bank accounts confidential. It has always been the way. Your assets can only be frozen under a court order and to do that you have to show probable cause they are the 'proceeds of crime' or money laundering.
FACT: Her mother is a French national (possibly a resident). She was born and brought up in the UK. She was educated at Oxford. She is a British citizen. She has US nationality via naturalisation, having lived there a long time. Nothing suspicious about that.
That is likely true. Her father, Robert was a great supporter of Israel, as was Epstein, and probably Maxwell, too. They do help each other out. Robert Maxwell had six high up members of the Israeli state at his funeral in Jerusalem IIRC.
She might be a flight risk. However, it should be easy enough to provide her with proper hygienic conditions during her remand period before trial. They should not be shining lights in her face every fifteen minutes while she is trying to sleep. She should not have to put up with 24-hour fluorescent lighting, with no natural daylight (imagine being in a 9ft cell with no windows...), guards standing over her on the toilet, confiscating legal privileged documents, filming her with her lawyers, etc., etc. rats, sewage leaking over the floor.
Usually, but these witnesses seem to have all been self-selected, responding to an appeal put out by Bradley Edwards. Only one actually went to the police of her own accord at the time of the alleged offences.
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
Giuffre founded a charity advocating 'speaking out'. She founded the US nonprofit organization Victims Refuse Silence in 2015.
Her attorney Bradley Edwards has brought out a book and a Netflix series, Filthy Rich.
Now of course, their aim might be completely true. However, there is no denying Edwards probably earned millions from Netflix and his book has been a best seller. If his clients win their case, they may be entitled to a share of Epstein's estate. If I were a Judge I would be wary of any party who embarked on a publicity campaign ahead of the trial.
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
But you are doing the opposite, calling Maxwell all sorts of names. It doesn't really matter if she is nice or horrible at the end of the day.
autumn1971
Illuminator
Planigale was opining on extradition, clearly a judicial matter.
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
See the bigger picture? Bwhahahaha! So adorable!!
Aha, I wondered when you would play the "victim card". If she really was a victim, that would be her first defence.... has she claimed she was a victim?
So?
Oh, please, give me a ******* break!! The vast majority of rapes are never reported to law enforcement, and these girls were under the complete control of Epstein and his enforcer, Maxwell? They are just going to walk up the the first cop they see and make a rape complaint? Sure, sure....
Has it even occurred to you in your "big picture" that they might only be coming out now because it has only been published recently (as in the last couple of years) that, not only was Epstein given a sweetheart deal by Acosta, but that they were kept in the dark about it, and not consulted as required by law under Federal Rules of Procedure.
And?
Whatever other women and sex workers may or may not have done absolutely has no relevance here. What happened to THESE women and girls is at hand. The accusers claim they were coerced into it.
Irrelevant.
While you are not required by law to sit still for papers to be served, if you actively try to avoid being served papers, even going to the extent of leaving the country to evade the process server, you are creating a track record of fleeing the country to avoid the legal process. Those actions can be used later as evidence of the risk of flight... and that is exactly what happened to Maxwell - the track record she created for herself has come back and bitten her in the arse.
That may be your take, my take differs...
She saw for herself the furore surrounding her ex-boyfriend and the screaming headlines baying for her blood. She knew what she had done, she knew the legal jeopardy she was in and she knew there were witnesses who would testify against her. It is no surprise she went into hiding, criminals avoiding the law often do.
"Flight of the accused, after a crime has been committed, does not create a presumption of guilt. It is, however, a circumstance which may tend to prove consciousness of guilt, and should be considered and weighed by the jury in connection with all the other evidence. The weight to be given evidence of flight depends upon the motives which prompted it, and all of the surrounding facts and circumstances"
- United States v. Jackson, 572 F.2d 636, 639 n.4 (7th Cir. 1978)
Fleeing and hiding from the Law evinces the guilty mind!
There is a big difference between keeping your bank accounts confidential, and actively hiding them using false names on the accounts. If a defendant has been shown to go to such extremes to hide their finances, the prosecutors are entitled to think they have nefarious reasons for doing so.
You try hiding your bank accounts from HM Revenue & Customs, and see what it gets you (and don't get caught)
Sure its not suspicious. I hold a NZ passport (naturalised citizen) and a British passport (my Dad was English, I was was born there), and I am entitled to hold a Swiss Passport as well (my mother was Swiss).
However, the fact that it is not suspicious does not prevent her from using it to her advantage. It allows her to disappear into a country that WILL NOT extradite her to the US for trial.
If indeed any of that is really happening. We only have her word for any of that. The prison officials, the prosecutors and it seems, the other prisoners in the prison say different. They say she is getting preferential treatment.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...w-it-treats-jailed-ghislaine-maxwell-n1250299
She is served three normal meals a day and keeps her weight around 134 pounds.
She has access to recreation
She has access to computers and Television
She has much of the day to herself (can work on her defense)
She is allowed eight hours a month for social calls (and uses all of it)
As for your other claims...
Your claim: "They should not be shining lights in her face every fifteen minutes while she is trying to sleep"
The Facts: All prisoners are subject to this; Brooklyn jail officials check all cells overnight with flashlights "to ensure inmates are still breathing and not in distress."
Your claim: "She should not have to put up with 24-hour fluorescent lighting, with no natural daylight"
The Facts: Some of her recreation time is outside. She gets three hours per day in the exercise yard (most other prisoners only get two hours)
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/we...g-treated-in-jail/Y2P2TEYHADBMNS6U4NB6GVODB4/
Your claim: guards standing over her on the toilet
The Facts: This claim has no basis in fact. It is simply untrue, it never happened.
Your claim: confiscating legal privileged documents,
The Facts: Another factually false claim. Prisoners are not allowed to receive and retain any documents from their lawyers. They may read and discus documents with their lawyers, but that is all. Prisoners are not allowed to leave the legal rooms with anything they didn't walk in with. The documents in question were legally seized and returned to her lawyer.
Your claim: filming her with her lawyers
The Facts: It is routine prisoners to be filmed in the legal rooms, but there is no audio, and the cameras are nowhere near high enough resolution to see what is written any documents. She is being held on the second floor of the women's block where the medical facilities, legal visiting rooms and guard areas are. She is the only prisoner on that floor.
Your claim: rats, sewage leaking over the floor.
The Facts: MDC staff directed the defendant to clean her cell because it had become very dirty. Among other things, they noted that Maxwell frequently did not flush her toilet after using it, which caused the cell to smell...
https://metro.co.uk/2021/04/07/ghis...-in-jail-as-doesnt-flush-the-toilet-14369374/
This one is hardly surprising to me.... with the privileged lifestyle she was used to "cleaning" is not something she would ever have done. I doubt she has ever handled a mop and bucket in her entire life... that would be a job for servants and menials.
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Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
See the bigger picture? Bwhahahaha! So adorable!!
Aha, I wondered when you would play the "victim card". If she really was a victim, that would be her first defence.... has she claimed she was a victim?
So?
Oh, please, give me a ******* break!! The vast majority of rapes are never reported to law enforcement, and these girls were under the complete control of Epstein and his enforcer, Maxwell? Tthey are just going to walk up the the first cop they see and make a rape complaint? Sure, sure....
Has it even occurred to you in your "big picture" that they might only be coming out now because it has only been published recently (as in the last couple of years) that, not only was Epstein given a sweetheart deal by Acosta, but that they were kept in the dark about it, and not consulted as required by law under Federal Rules of Procedure.
And?
Whatever other women and sex workers may or may not have done absolutely has no relevance here. What happened to THESE women and girls is at hand. The accusers claim they were coerced into it.
<snip>
These women all went home at night...and then came back for more. Just like you or I might turn up for work every day, for the wages. I am sure we have both had jobs where if we didn't like it, we walked. Nobody dragged them off the streets and into Epstein's mansion. They were paid a handsome $200-$300 for twenty minutes of sex work and then returned time and again for more. In the interim they returned home to their families. Why weren't the parents of the younger ones asking where they were, who they were with and where they got their wealth from? Fair enough, it is rightly illegal to pay a minor for sex. However, don't try to exaggerate it into a 'sex-slaved children imprisoned by monsters for years and should be jailed for 35 years' hyperbole.
Belz...
Fiend God
Well, she can't possibly be in an abusive relationship. If her husband beat her she'd leave. The fact that she stays proves that the accusation is false!
I can't imagine the amount of privldege that would necessitate a royal flusher. The queen has ****. Summon the royal flusher post haste! Wait, it was only urine, summon the piss only flusher. After all, right person for the right job.
It was an attempt to make the conditions so bad they have to release her.
I suspect the guest will be posting a seriously negative review on Trip Advisor: "The suite was tiny, housekeeping never visited, and the management refused to give me my own key card! I do not recommend."
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
Why did you mention the gallic shrug and anglo-saxon prudishness?
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
Indeed, not unlike battered women, or women who live in an abusive relationship - they have plenty of opportunity to leave while their husbands are at work, but don't, and when husband gets home they get more. In many cases, they do leave, only to later go back for more.
Ever wondered why any of that is? Well, read on and learn something.
There are eight key reasons why women who are being abused or victimised stay with their tormentor. Not all of them apply to all situations. I have highlighted the ones that, IMO, apply here...
1. Distorted thoughts 2. Damaged self worth 3. Fear and threats4. Wanting to be a saviour
5. Children
6. Family Expectations
7. Financial constraints 8. Isolation
1. Distorted Thoughts. Being controlled and hurt is traumatizing, and this leads to confusion, doubts, and even self-blame. In their own minds, they minimize and justify what is happening to them as a coping mechanism.
2. Damaged Self-Worth. Damage to the self that is the result of degrading treatment. Many women feel beaten down and of no value.
3. Fear and threats. The threat harm is powerful, and abusers use this to control and keep women trapped. Female victims are much more likely than male victims to be terrorized and traumatized. Attempting to leave an abuser is dangerous, Epstein and Maxwell were very powerful, with a long reach.
7. Financial Constraints.Not having enough confidence to leave because of the fear of having not financial stability
8. Isolation. A common tactic of abusive people. They isolate their victim from anyone who might be able to help. it is made it clear to them that they can't tell anyone else about their "work" or there will be consequences.
Some of these girls were so traumatised, isolated and ashamed of the situation they were in, and were so lacking in self-confidence, they were unable to tell anyone about it, not even their parents. They were also aware that there would be consequences if they did.
Now that Epstein is dead, and Maxwell has had her power removed, they feel able to come out and tell their stories - embarrassment and not wishing to relive the traumatic experiences are probably the only remaining constraints now.
Careful, your privilege and entitlement are showing again, and you are again minimizing the criminality of Maxwell, and this time, of Epstein as well: 'they were well paid, so where's the problem?'
PS: Is good to see that you studiously avoided addressing any of the other replies I made to your post, especially satisfying was seeing you avoid addressing those points I made about the conditions under which she is kept (which is, after all, what you claim to be all about in this thread). I wonder why that is? Maybe its because you've run out of excuses for Maxwell, or are unable to think of any new lies to make so that you can keep throwing BS at the wall in the hope that some of it might stick.
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I just note that predators are skilled at identifying victims who are vulnerable and needly. Many of the Epstein/Maxwell victims had troubled family lives, little money and other issues that made them prey to someone who acted kind to them. Grooming is a real thing. Maxwell wasn't snatching girls from the halls of elite prep schools.