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German Holocaust Denier gets 5 Years

In a statement to the court, Ernst Zundel said the judges should create an international commission to determine whether millions of Jews were actually massacred during World War II. He said if the commission found that they were, he would apologize for his views. accuse the commission of being Zionist supporters
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fixed it :)


ETA: gar, whats the bbcode fro strikeout here? lol
 
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The guy is obviously a vile nazi pig but it still doesn't seem right to jail someone for merely believing something different to the commonly held view - OK facts in this case.
 
Splossy said:
The guy is obviously a vile nazi pig but it still doesn't seem right to jail someone for merely believing something different to the commonly held view - OK facts in this case.
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I'd be willing to bet you won't find any disagreement, here.

I don't believe putting stupid people in jail benefits anyone- in fact I think it hurts the scientific movement: it stifles debate, giving credence to the deniers.
 
Zundel is sort of the Holocaust deniers Judy Wood. He promotes the idea that the nazis maintain a base at Antarctica were they keep the UFO's they developed during and after the war. A regular nazi nutjob he is.

SLOB
 
Splossy said:
The guy is obviously a vile nazi pig but it still doesn't seem right to jail someone for merely believing something different to the commonly held view - OK facts in this case.
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It isn't just "holding a different view." His particular crime amounts to "incitement to racism." The German word is "Volksverhetzung." The literal translation is "incitement of the masses." Zuendel's crime is more related to "incitement to riot" and hate crimes as they would be named in the US.

It sucks when a republic has to limit the rights of its people, but in the case of Germany and Nazism I'm afraid the Germans are right - they need those laws specific and to the point of "inciting the masses" and "supportive of Nazism" to bring home the point of the prosecution and the judgement that comes from it.

When the last of the post WWII generation is gone, maybe the laws could be repealed. Until then, it is all too common to find folks who still believe that Hitler was a good guy who was out manuevered by the "Armaments Industry" into starting the war. I have met folks who believe that he did good things for the country, and who still believe that Jewish people were and are evil and a threat to all non-Jews in the world.

That said, there are plenty of good folks here. The nazi idolators are a minority, and the majority disapproves of them greatly. "Schindler's List" is shown on public (government supported) TV, as well as documentaries about the activities - and atrocities - of the nazis and the German Army during WWII.

Germany is doing its best to overcome its past, and for the time being they need these laws. Zuendel could have been prosecuted under a more generic law against, for example, hate crimes. Nailing him under a law aimed at nazism and its supporters sends a reminder to the average German that helps to reenforce German society's intent to avoid the mistakes of the past.

Germany has experienced first hand just how easy it is to rouse an entire nation into a war-mongering genocidal frenzy. They have made laws that (they sincerely hope) will prevent a reoccurence, and filled those laws with words and names and terms that remind them of the reason for those laws.
 
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Zundel goes inside...

I oppose laws that make it criminal to deny the Holocaust, but MortFurd makes a very strong argument for the German and Austrian position on the issue, and I do agree with his logic.

I would also note that Mr. Zundel apparently was tossed out of Canada for funneling his money to violent neo-Nazi groups in America and Canada, which was what that trial was about. He is a grade-A nutter, with books about Nazi UFOs and "The Hitler We Loved And Why," and his "reports" on Auschwitz fueled a lot of David Irving's nonsense (and Irving fueled him).

In one of Zundel's trials in Canada, Holocaust survivors were put on the stand to verify the truth of their experiences, and Zundel and his attorney basically hounded and harassed these people. For example, one recalled the "Selection" process at Auschwitz, and assumed the doctor that day was Mengele. Well, Zundel's paper said it was some other SS medic, and Zundel used that to accuse the survivor of making the whole story up. Nonsense, of course, and I would not expect a survivor to know whether the doctor was Mengele that day or not. The survivors were reduced to tears, which was Zundel's goal.

This is why the Lipstadt defense against Irving relied on documentation and historians, not survivors, to prevent Irving from hounding victims again.

Zundel's trade, by the way, is that of a photo-retoucher. So he's familiar with faking imagery to suit his goals.

He wants a "commission" to investigate the Holocaust. I guess he also wants to pick the members.

I am reminded in this story of how Streicher, late in his trial, said that he now supported "World Jewry" in its aims, and offered to make a speech at Madison Square Garden, urging the world to get behind the Jews. Naturally, his bizarre offer was ignored.
 
As I rembember it he was even convicted for lying - but the law was then abolished for beging against the Canadian constitution. It was however proven that he not only lied, but that he knew he was lying.

I also believe that it was for the Zundel-trials the infamous Leuchter-report was made.

The Zundel-evicition was also very bizarre. First he left Candada, claiming he was being harassed by the government. He moved to the States were is wife, Ingrid Rimland, is a naturalized citizen (thinks she's Ukrainian originally). Then he failed to comply to IRS-hearings which led to his deportation, back to Canada where he seeked asylum (Yep, same govenment he accused of harassment) to evade being deported back to Germany.

He is indeed a weird one.

Also on trial for denying the Holocaust is Germar Rudolf - and on a side note Germany is now pushing for making Holocaust-denial, and the denial of other crimes against the humanity, illegal in the entire EU.


SLOB
 
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SLOB said:
Also on trial for denying the Holocaust is Germar Rudolf - and on a side note Germany is now pushing for making Holocaust-denial, and the denial of other crimes against the humanity, illegal in the entire EU.
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OK, whatever, Germany. They think they can just legislate ideas out of existence? There's ALWAYS going to be some conspiracy nutbars around who think the holocaust was fake. All you do by silencing them is make them look like martyrs. The holocaust deniers use this as an argument: "Well, if the truth of the holocaust is so self-evident, where's the harm in questioning it? Why is it illegal? What are they trying to hide?"

Suppressing speech, even Holocaust denial, in the long run does more harm than good.
 
Axiom_Blade said:
OK, whatever, Germany. They think they can just legislate ideas out of existence? There's ALWAYS going to be some conspiracy nutbars around who think the holocaust was fake. All you do by silencing them is make them look like martyrs. The holocaust deniers use this as an argument: "Well, if the truth of the holocaust is so self-evident, where's the harm in questioning it? Why is it illegal? What are they trying to hide?"

Suppressing speech, even Holocaust denial, in the long run does more harm than good.
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Yes agreed. Im even suspecting thats what drove Irving back to Austria, even though he knew he would be imprisoned. I've been hit several times by deniers with "if its the truth, why the need to hide behind laws?" But Germany and Austria both have a history making the Holocaust in particular a sensitive issue so I can understand why they have those laws. That doesnt mean I agree with them, but I can understand it.

SLOB
 
SLOB said:
He promotes the idea that the nazis maintain a base at Antarctica were they keep the UFO's they developed during and after the war.

SLOB
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Well, of course he's right about that!! That's part of what got
Ray Palmer so confused about the (abandon)Deros.:D :D :D
 
You're a two faced hypocrite if ever there was one. Laws against free speech by nazis are wrong but laws against free speech by "democracy" are right. Germany is a signatory to the UN Declaration on Human Rights which includes the right to a dissenting opinion on all subjects. As for the nazi past everyone is well aware of it as there is not a week that goes by without the never ending holocaust propaganda in films, tv, newspapers etc. World War II ended over 60 years ago! 95% of the German people would not have even been alive during the war yet they are made to go on a never ending guilt trip. Germany to this day has paid billions in reparations to Israel and individual jews around the world and these reparations continue today. The money comes from the German taxpayers even thought most of them weren't even alive during the war. When will it end? I repeat World War II ended over 60 years ago!

MortFurd said:
It isn't just "holding a different view." His particular crime amounts to "incitement to racism." The German word is "Volksverhetzung." The literal translation is "incitement of the masses." Zuendel's crime is more related to "incitement to riot" and hate crimes as they would be named in the US.

It sucks when a republic has to limit the rights of its people, but in the case of Germany and Nazism I'm afraid the Germans are right - they need those laws specific and to the point of "inciting the masses" and "supportive of Nazism" to bring home the point of the prosecution and the judgement that comes from it.

When the last of the post WWII generation is gone, maybe the laws could be repealed. Until then, it is all too common to find folks who still believe that Hitler was a good guy who was out manuevered by the "Armaments Industry" into starting the war. I have met folks who believe that he did good things for the country, and who still believe that Jewish people were and are evil and a threat to all non-Jews in the world.

That said, there are plenty of good folks here. The nazi idolators are a minority, and the majority disapproves of them greatly. "Schindler's List" is shown on public (government supported) TV, as well as documentaries about the activities - and atrocities - of the nazis and the German Army during WWII.

Germany is doing its best to overcome its past, and for the time being they need these laws. Zuendel could have been prosecuted under a more generic law against, for example, hate crimes. Nailing him under a law aimed at nazism and its supporters sends a reminder to the average German that helps to reenforce German society's intent to avoid the mistakes of the past.

Germany has experienced first hand just how easy it is to rouse an entire nation into a war-mongering genocidal frenzy. They have made laws that (they sincerely hope) will prevent a reoccurence, and filled those laws with words and names and terms that remind them of the reason for those laws.
Click to expand...
 
Kiwiwriter said:
I oppose laws that make it criminal to deny the Holocaust, but MortFurd makes a very strong argument for the German and Austrian position on the issue, and I do agree with his logic.

I would also note that Mr. Zundel apparently was tossed out of Canada for funneling his money to violent neo-Nazi groups in America and Canada, which was what that trial was about. He is a grade-A nutter, with books about Nazi UFOs and "The Hitler We Loved And Why," and his "reports" on Auschwitz fueled a lot of David Irving's nonsense (and Irving fueled him).

In one of Zundel's trials in Canada, Holocaust survivors were put on the stand to verify the truth of their experiences, and Zundel and his attorney basically hounded and harassed these people. For example, one recalled the "Selection" process at Auschwitz, and assumed the doctor that day was Mengele. Well, Zundel's paper said it was some other SS medic, and Zundel used that to accuse the survivor of making the whole story up. Nonsense, of course, and I would not expect a survivor to know whether the doctor was Mengele that day or not. The survivors were reduced to tears, which was Zundel's goal.

This is why the Lipstadt defense against Irving relied on documentation and historians, not survivors, to prevent Irving from hounding victims again.

Zundel's trade, by the way, is that of a photo-retoucher. So he's familiar with faking imagery to suit his goals.

He wants a "commission" to investigate the Holocaust. I guess he also wants to pick the members.

I am reminded in this story of how Streicher, late in his trial, said that he now supported "World Jewry" in its aims, and offered to make a speech at Madison Square Garden, urging the world to get behind the Jews. Naturally, his bizarre offer was ignored.
Click to expand...


Do you think that because someone was in a concentration camp and is a holocaust survivor that this means they are some kind of saint and never tell lies and don't have an axe to grind and cannot be questioned? In a truly democratic society no one should be above question!
 
Axiom_Blade said:
OK, whatever, Germany. They think they can just legislate ideas out of existence? There's ALWAYS going to be some conspiracy nutbars around who think the holocaust was fake. All you do by silencing them is make them look like martyrs. The holocaust deniers use this as an argument: "Well, if the truth of the holocaust is so self-evident, where's the harm in questioning it? Why is it illegal? What are they trying to hide?"

Suppressing speech, even Holocaust denial, in the long run does more harm than good.
Click to expand...


In a democratic society free speech is supposed to exist for everyone including those whose opinions you may despise.
 
Splossy said:
The guy is obviously a vile nazi pig but it still doesn't seem right to jail someone for merely believing something different to the commonly held view - OK facts in this case.
Click to expand...


He probably considers his jailers "democratic" pigs!
 
Mondial said:
Do you think that because someone was in a concentration camp and is a holocaust survivor that this means they are some kind of saint and never tell lies and don't have an axe to grind and cannot be questioned? In a truly democratic society no one should be above question!
Click to expand...

So, somehow the survivors managed to ALL agree on the same lie, and the Nazis even backed them up!

As you said yourself, WWII was over 60 years ago. These people shouldn't have to still answer questions. Case is closed.
 
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