George Floyd trial #2 - Kueng, Lane, Thao

[crescent]

The three cops who were with Derek Chauvin are currently on trail.

Their fates are much less cut and dry. Lane in particular probably has a real chance at getting off.

1:It was his first day in the field.
2: Chauvin was Lane's Field Training Officer (FTO)
3: Lane asked twice if they should shift position and
4: Expressed concern that Floyd might have trouble breathing
5: Checked for pulse
6: Lane called for the ambulance
7: Lane requested that the ambulance shift its response from standard to urgent
8: Lane did CPR on Floyd on the ambulance


#2 is the big one for me. I have worked with Law Enforcement. New cops have to work under the wing of an FTO for at least a few weeks. The culture is that the FTO treats the noob like crap for the first week or two, and the noob had better not contradict the FTO on anything. The FTO gets to play drill Sergeant and they love it. The FTO is typically on a HUUUGE power trip and the noob is expected to meekly go along with it.

Had Floyd survived, Chauvin would certainly have ripped Lane a new one for making even the slightest suggestion contrary to what Chauvin was doing - and the force likely would have supported that. This, especially because Lane made these comments in front of a hostile crowd. Lane would have been blackballed on the force from day 1.

Lane's first day on the job and his boss outright murders a man right in front of him. He broke culture in challenging that, even if his protests were weak and wishy washy.

Attorneys for 3 cops in Floyd killing question training

I don't have any sympathy for the other two, but it looks like the Department is throwing Lane under the bus by refusing to acknowledge the dynamics of the FTO/Trainee relationship.

 

[ponderingturtle]

The three cops who were with Derek Chauvin are currently on trail.

Their fates are much less cut and dry. Lane in particular probably has a real chance at getting off.

1:It was his first day in the field.
2: Chauvin was Lane's Field Training Officer (FTO)
3: Lane asked twice if they should shift position and
4: Expressed concern that Floyd might have trouble breathing
5: Checked for pulse
6: Lane called for the ambulance
7: Lane requested that the ambulance shift its response from standard to urgent
8: Lane did CPR on Floyd on the ambulance


#2 is the big one for me. I have worked with Law Enforcement. New cops have to work under the wing of an FTO for at least a few weeks. The culture is that the FTO treats the noob like crap for the first week or two, and the noob had better not contradict the FTO on anything. The FTO gets to play drill Sergeant and they love it. The FTO is typically on a HUUUGE power trip and the noob is expected to meekly go along with it.

Had Floyd survived, Chauvin would certainly have ripped Lane a new one for making even the slightest suggestion contrary to what Chauvin was doing - and the force likely would have supported that. This, especially because Lane made these comments in front of a hostile crowd. Lane would have been blackballed on the force from day 1.

Lane's first day on the job and his boss outright murders a man right in front of him. He broke culture in challenging that, even if his protests were weak and wishy washy.

Attorneys for 3 cops in Floyd killing question training

I don't have any sympathy for the other two, but it looks like the Department is throwing Lane under the bus by refusing to acknowledge the dynamics of the FTO/Trainee relationship.

Those are certainly points in his favor, I am just not sure it legally matters. Being threatened does not excuse criminal behavior. So it seems like it would play more in the sentencing phase than the guilt phase.

 

[Darat]

The three cops who were with Derek Chauvin are currently on trail.

Their fates are much less cut and dry. Lane in particular probably has a real chance at getting off.

1:It was his first day in the field.
2: Chauvin was Lane's Field Training Officer (FTO)
3: Lane asked twice if they should shift position and
4: Expressed concern that Floyd might have trouble breathing
5: Checked for pulse
6: Lane called for the ambulance
7: Lane requested that the ambulance shift its response from standard to urgent
8: Lane did CPR on Floyd on the ambulance


#2 is the big one for me. I have worked with Law Enforcement. New cops have to work under the wing of an FTO for at least a few weeks. The culture is that the FTO treats the noob like crap for the first week or two, and the noob had better not contradict the FTO on anything. The FTO gets to play drill Sergeant and they love it. The FTO is typically on a HUUUGE power trip and the noob is expected to meekly go along with it.

Had Floyd survived, Chauvin would certainly have ripped Lane a new one for making even the slightest suggestion contrary to what Chauvin was doing - and the force likely would have supported that. This, especially because Lane made these comments in front of a hostile crowd. Lane would have been blackballed on the force from day 1.

Lane's first day on the job and his boss outright murders a man right in front of him. He broke culture in challenging that, even if his protests were weak and wishy washy.

Attorneys for 3 cops in Floyd killing question training

I don't have any sympathy for the other two, but it looks like the Department is throwing Lane under the bus by refusing to acknowledge the dynamics of the FTO/Trainee relationship.

I would have thought they would also be on trial for felony murder? When you are with an individual who murders someone i.e. unlawful killing i.e. a criminal then even if you didn't take part in the actual murder you are usually charged with felony murder. The classic example is the getaway driver who never went into the bank, was not armed, and hadn't agreed to murdering anyone in the commission of the crime.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Those are certainly points in his favor, I am just not sure it legally matters. Being threatened does not excuse criminal behavior. So it seems like it would play more in the sentencing phase than the guilt phase.

You'd hope so. Plenty of less culpable people are rotting in prison today for felony murder convictions that involved far less participation than these 3 pigs that directly assisted Chauvin in murdering Floyd.

The pessimist in me suspects that the defense will be successful in painting Chauvin as a lone bad apple who is solely responsible. Hopefully a jury sees through such nonsense.

 

[plague311]

I would have thought they would also be on trial for felony murder? When you are with an individual who murders someone i.e. unlawful killing i.e. a criminal then even if you didn't take part in the actual murder you are usually charged with felony murder. The classic example is the getaway driver who never went into the bank, was not armed, and hadn't agreed to murdering anyone in the commission of the crime.

I think the best they could probably get is some form of accessory. Perhaps there could be something for the ones who restrained Floyd while he was on the ground, but admittedly IANAL. Federal statutes can get a little tricky too.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Ahh yes, excited delirium, our old friend.

Thao’s attorney, Robert Paule, on Monday challenged Blackwell on whether the officers received adequate training, including on the use of neck restraints. He also presented department training materials on how to handle someone experiencing “excited delirium” — an agitated state that the materials say could warrant more forceful restraint.

Cop apologism is so sophisticated this country they invented a made-up illness to explain why people they are brutally beating or restraining end up dying.

 

[JoeMorgue]

#2 is the big one for me. I have worked with Law Enforcement. New cops have to work under the wing of an FTO for at least a few weeks. The culture is that the FTO treats the noob like crap for the first week or two, and the noob had better not contradict the FTO on anything. The FTO gets to play drill Sergeant and they love it. The FTO is typically on a HUUUGE power trip and the noob is expected to meekly go along with it.

And in absolutely nothing approaching a sane world does that extend to "therefore stand by and watch a murder and do nothing."

 

[TurkeysGhost]

And in absolutely nothing approaching a sane world does that extend to "therefore stand by and watch a murder and do nothing."

It really sucks that that MPD is little more than a street gang with state backing that initiates new members by making them accessories to criminal assaults and murders, but I also don't see how that's a valid legal defense.

Then again, the "just doing my job" defense does have a long track record of exonerating cops for overtly criminal behavior. Who knows how this one will shake out.

 

[Warp12]

And in absolutely nothing approaching a sane world does that extend to "therefore stand by and watch a murder and do nothing."

Did any of the officers suspect they were witnessing, or even committing murder?

 

[plague311]

Did any of the officers suspect they were witnessing, or even committing murder?

If they didn't then they weren't qualified to be police officers.

At least Lane did considering, per the information quoted here, he made multiple statements and actions designed to either move or help Floyd.

Everyone knew exactly what was happening. The crowd, Chauvin, the other cops, etc. It wasn't a mystery. He stopped ******* breathing for Christ's sake.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Did any of the officers suspect they were witnessing, or even committing murder?

All of them. Because was a murder was happening directly in front of their eyes. That's how "witnessing something" works.

Please tune in next week for another episode of "Explaining what words mean."

 

[ponderingturtle]

The three cops who were with Derek Chauvin are currently on trail.

Their fates are much less cut and dry. Lane in particular probably has a real chance at getting off.

1:It was his first day in the field.
2: Chauvin was Lane's Field Training Officer (FTO)
3: Lane asked twice if they should shift position and
4: Expressed concern that Floyd might have trouble breathing
5: Checked for pulse
6: Lane called for the ambulance
7: Lane requested that the ambulance shift its response from standard to urgent
8: Lane did CPR on Floyd on the ambulance


#2 is the big one for me. I have worked with Law Enforcement. New cops have to work under the wing of an FTO for at least a few weeks. The culture is that the FTO treats the noob like crap for the first week or two, and the noob had better not contradict the FTO on anything. The FTO gets to play drill Sergeant and they love it. The FTO is typically on a HUUUGE power trip and the noob is expected to meekly go along with it.

Had Floyd survived, Chauvin would certainly have ripped Lane a new one for making even the slightest suggestion contrary to what Chauvin was doing - and the force likely would have supported that. This, especially because Lane made these comments in front of a hostile crowd. Lane would have been blackballed on the force from day 1.

Lane's first day on the job and his boss outright murders a man right in front of him. He broke culture in challenging that, even if his protests were weak and wishy washy.

Attorneys for 3 cops in Floyd killing question training

I don't have any sympathy for the other two, but it looks like the Department is throwing Lane under the bus by refusing to acknowledge the dynamics of the FTO/Trainee relationship.

Expanding on the training officer issue, how is that any different than a military personnel following illegal orders? It seems pretty hard to say they are throwing him under the bus.

 

[crescent]

And in absolutely nothing approaching a sane world does that extend to "therefore stand by and watch a murder and do nothing."

You're right. Lane, in this case, didn't "do nothing". He suggested getting off Floyd - twice, overruled each time. He checked for a pulse, called for an ambulance, upgraded the ambulance response to urgent.

The prosecution seems to be suggesting that Lane should have physically pushed Chauvin off Floyd, any action less than that would be murder.

Generally, police officers who contradict other officers are not treated well. This would be amplified by litereal first-day-on-the-job officer contradicting a 21 year service record officer in front of a crowd.

2nd trial in Floyd killing centers on clash of duty, code

Police departments and local prosecutors have their own means to punish officers who don’t intervene. But high-profile examples show how risky it is, both personally and professionally, for officers who do intervene or who cooperate with investigations of fellow officers.

In Chicago, a key police witness against three Chicago officers charged with trying to cover up the 2014 shooting of Laquan McDonald testified that she was taunted as a “rat” by fellow officers who said her calls for assistance while on duty should be ignored.

In Florida late last year, an officer with less than three years experience pulled a sergeant by his belt away from a handcuffed suspect, apparently afraid he was about to pepper spray the man. The sergeant, a 21-year veteran, grabbed the officer — at one point placing his hand against her throat.

And in Buffalo, New York, Officer Cariol Horne was fired in 2008 after an arbitration process ruled that she had put other officers at risk when she stopped a fellow officer whose arm was around a handcuffed suspect’s neck.

The Florida officer drew the support of her chief for stepping in, though his public comments came only after a Miami TV station published video of the conflict. Horne, the Buffalo officer, was ultimately granted a pension — but only after a lengthy court battle and a push to change state law.

I think it is easy for us to be self-righteous and pretend that we would be the first-day rookie that would wrestle the salty old cop off Floyd. What we would have really done if we were that first-day cop may be very different.

 

[Warp12]

If they didn't then they weren't qualified to be police officers.

At least Lane did considering, per the information quoted here, he made multiple statements and actions designed to either move or help Floyd.

Everyone knew exactly what was happening. The crowd, Chauvin, the other cops, etc. It wasn't a mystery. He stopped ******* breathing for Christ's sake.

I disagree. It is not reasonable to suspect that even Chauvin knew he was killing Floyd. In this case, I don't see where the partner did anything wrong; particularly taking into account that he was a rookie.

 

[JoeMorgue]

You're right. Lane, in this case, didn't "do nothing". He suggested getting off Floyd - twice, overruled each time. He checked for a pulse, called for an ambulance, upgraded the ambulance response to urgent.

Oh he "suggested" the murder stop? Then please give him the Medal of Honor, how could I have misjudged him. Make him Commissioner. Make him Mayor. Make him God.

*Jerk off motion.*

He's a LEO and he stood by and passively watched a murder. You can't word gymnastics that away.

You know what he should have done? Stopped him. Pushed him off. Tase him. If that didn't work he should of shot Chauvin in the head. There was a crime happening in front of him, the perpetrator of the crime refused to stop committing the crime, and a person was gonna die.

You know what cops are supposed to when watching a murder happen in front of him.

 

[crescent]

Expanding on the training officer issue, how is that any different than a military personnel following illegal orders? It seems pretty hard to say they are throwing him under the bus.

Hypothetical: A junior officer orders a superior officer not to shoot a civilian, but the superior officer does it anyway.

Is the junior officer culpable? How far does the junior officer need to go to stop his superior?

I mean, Lane was not on the neck or the chest. He held Floyd's feet and at times didn't even do that. He was there, he tried to change the course of events but was the lowest ranking cop on the scene.

 

[ponderingturtle]

You're right. Lane, in this case, didn't "do nothing". He suggested getting off Floyd - twice, overruled each time. He checked for a pulse, called for an ambulance, upgraded the ambulance response to urgent.

The prosecution seems to be suggesting that Lane should have physically pushed Chauvin off Floyd, any action less than that would be murder.

Generally, police officers who contradict other officers are not treated well. This would be amplified by litereal first-day-on-the-job officer contradicting a 21 year service record officer in front of a crowd.

2nd trial in Floyd killing centers on clash of duty, code



I think it is easy for us to be self-righteous and pretend that we would be the first-day rookie that would wrestle the salty old cop off Floyd. What we would have really done if we were that first-day cop may be very different.

Sure it is hard to do, but please cite the legal statues that such things would mitigate responsibility and guilt.

Also how could he not know the real risks of the profession he was getting into?

 

[JoeMorgue]

We are NOT having a "But is it really reasonable to expect a sworn officer of the law to just... do something about a murder that's happening right in front of him?" discussion.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Hypothetical: A junior officer orders a superior officer not to shoot a civilian, but the superior officer does it anyway.

Is the junior officer culpable? How far does the junior officer need to go to stop his superior?

I mean, Lane was not on the neck or the chest. He held Floyd's feet and at times didn't even do that. He was there, he tried to change the course of events but was the lowest ranking cop on the scene.

And that should be taken into consideration. Police have no legal obligation to help someone they see being killing by a non police officer so if he had done nothing he would be in the clear. But his helping in the murder of Floyd is harder to say.

If the junior officer gave his weapon to the senior officer and it was the one used would you say that the junior officer was guilty of something? You had the junior officer in your example be a bystander and he was not.

 

[ponderingturtle]

We are NOT having a "But is it really reasonable to expect a sworn officer of the law to just... do something about a murder that's happening right in front of him?" discussion.

Of course not, we know that answer has been fully established to be legally no they don't have such a responsibility.