Geological and archaeological evidence for/against the flood/CTE

[RoboTimbo]

The discussion about whether or not there was a global flood as described in the Bible has been split to its own thread here from its original location in the Biblical Fallacies thread, located here.

Posted By: LashL

There was a global flood?

 

[AvalonXQ]

There was a global flood?

Yep.

 

[RoboTimbo]

Yep.

There's no geological evidence for a global flood. What mechanism would have allowed that much water to exist prior to it flooding the earth? And where did the water go afterwards?

 

[Finster]

There was a global flood?

Yep.

I tried asking this in a couple of other threads and never got a response - Maybe the third time's a charm ...

How does a literal interpretation of the bible reconcile the story of Noah’s ark? I know the flood has been brought up already but I’m wondering about the reality of the actual ark, animals etc. I freely admit to not being a biblical scholar so if my assumptions are wrong please correct them. As far as I know the bible does not mention any direct interference from god with the ark beyond giving Noah the instructions. The idea that a wooden boat could have been built to hold representatives of every animal on earth, and their food, is clearly ridiculous. I’ve heard the explanation that “it was a miracle” no other explanation needed. So, did god make the boat like Harry Potter’s tent and the Tardis (bigger on the inside than the outside), or shrink all of the animals, or make it so they didn’t need to eat. Did god magically transport animals from other parts of the earth, create microclimates inside the boat, etc. ?

From a literalist perspective is it acceptable to just decide that there must have been a miracle to explain impossible events even if the miracle is not actually mentioned in the literal text? If so, how do you decide which parts are miracle and which are not?

 

[Belz...]

Yep.

Ridiculous. There is no evidence of a global flood and much evidence that there wasn't one.

Nope.

So not everything in the bible is true, then.

 

[RoboTimbo]

It's a matter of the Hebrew language and what's included in certain descriptions of animal groups.
There are varying explanations as to how they would have survived; I'm not very far up on them.


It's coming from another source. The Bible doesn't say.

Were you going to discuss the mechanism whereby that much water could exist to flood the world and where it went afterwards?

 

[AvalonXQ]

Were you going to discuss the mechanism whereby that much water could exist to flood the world and where it went afterwards?

Catastrophic plate tectonics. Rapid subduction of the entire ocean floor, causing massive supersonic jets of steam to launch into the atmosphere, returning to the surface over the next month.

 

[dafydd]

Catastrophic plate tectonics. Rapid subduction of the entire ocean floor, causing massive supersonic jets of steam to launch into the atmosphere, returning to the surface over the next month.

A looney religious website! Are you serious?

''Many creationist geologists now believe the catastrophic plate tectonics concept is very useful as the best explanation for how the Flood event occurred within the biblical framework for earth’s history. Even though the Bible does not specifically mention this concept, it is consistent with the biblical account, which implies an original supercontinent that broke up during the Flood, with the resultant continents obviously then having to move rapidly (“sprint”) into their present positions.

This concept is still rather new, and of course radical, but its explanatory power makes it compelling. Additional work is now being done to further detail this geologic model for the Flood event, especially to show that it provides a better explanation for the order and distribution of the fossils and strata globally than the failed slow-and-gradual belief. Of course, future discoveries may require adjustments in our thinking and understanding, but such is the nature of the human scientific enterprise. In contrast, “the word of the Lord endures forever” (1 Peter 1:25).''

Hilarious, the believers are clutching at straws yet again.

 

[RoboTimbo]

Catastrophic plate tectonics. Rapid subduction of the entire ocean floor, causing massive supersonic jets of steam to launch into the atmosphere, returning to the surface over the next month.

That doesn't work without a miracle, which is pretty much begging the question:

The main difficulty of this theory is that it admittedly doesn't work without miracles. [Baumgardner, 1990a, 1990b] The thermal diffusivity of the earth, for example, would have to increase 10,000 fold to get the subduction rates proposed [Matsumura, 1997], and miracles are also necessary to cool the new ocean floor and to raise sedimentary mountains in months rather than in the millions of years it would ordinarily take.

From here.

Is there another mechanism that would account for the water?

 

[AvalonXQ]

That doesn't work without a miracle, which is pretty much begging the question:

Proponents of the theory disagree.

I'm sure more evidence will come to light as time goes on.

 

[RoboTimbo]

Proponents of the theory disagree.

I'm sure they do. Do they have anything to refute the problems pointed out other than disagreement?

I'm sure more evidence will come to light as time goes on.

We'll have to shelve the hypothesis until that time.

Any other mechanism?

 

[Finster]

Catastrophic plate tectonics. Rapid subduction of the entire ocean floor, causing massive supersonic jets of steam to launch into the atmosphere, returning to the surface over the next month.

Wouldn't that just empty the oceans and then re-fill them. It doesn't explain the extra water required to cover everything and where it went afterward.

 

[AvalonXQ]

I'm sure they do. Do they have anything to refute the problems pointed out other than disagreement?

They do. They point to evidence which shows the possibility of sudden, rapid subduction.

 

[RoboTimbo]

They do. They point to evidence which shows the possibility of sudden, rapid subduction.

No, that doesn't address the problems such as:

Baumgardner estimates a release of 10²⁸ joules from the subduction process. This is more than enough to boil off all the oceans. In addition, Baumgardner postulates that the mantle was much hotter before the Flood (giving it greater viscosity); that heat would have to go somewhere, too.

Wishing away that much heat takes a miracle, begging the question.

Any other mechanism?

 

[AvalonXQ]

Wouldn't that just empty the oceans and then re-fill them. It doesn't explain the extra water required to cover everything and where it went afterward.

If the oceans massively ejected water into the air, wouldn't that be sufficient to cover all the land in a flood? There's a heck of a lot less water needed to completely cover the land than there is in the oceans.
Remember enough water, falling quick enough, will cause a flood even if there's a place for the water to go eventually (that is, back to the oceans).

 

[AvalonXQ]

No, that doesn't address the problems such as:
Wishing away that much heat takes a miracle

Mechanisms have been identified for removing the heat, and advocates dispute the heat calculation measurements in the first place.

Any other mechanism?

Sure -- a pre-flood water canopy.

 

[Finster]

If the oceans massively ejected water into the air, wouldn't that be sufficient to cover all the land in a flood? There's a heck of a lot less water needed to completely cover the land than there is in the oceans.
Remember enough water, falling quick enough, will cause a flood even if there's a place for the water to go eventually (that is, back to the oceans).

There's a difference between causing a localized flood and the entire surface of the earth being under water. You could have some major flooding in lower areas that would eventually run off but water is going to reach it's own level and if you want to submerge a 10,000 foot mountain that pretty much means you need 10,000 feet of water above sea level across the entire planet, including over the oceans.

 

[RoboTimbo]

Mechanisms have been identified for removing the heat, and advocates dispute the heat calculation measurements in the first place.

Any that don't require a miracle?

Sure -- a pre-flood water canopy.

Nope, even more heat and worse problems. The increased pressure makes oxygen and nitrogen levels toxic. Not that it would matter since everything on the surface of the earth would be boiled.

 

[dafydd]

We already knew that the silly story in the bible was not proof of a global flood.

 

[AvalonXQ]

Nope, even more heat and worse problems. The increased pressure makes oxygen and nitrogen levels toxic. Not that it would matter since everything on the surface of the earth would be boiled.

Happy to be linked to calculations on the subject.