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General Relativity, Acceleration, Gravity...

Thanks, epepke and 69dodge particularly, for helping me through this. I've been reading and rereading the posts and I think I'm getting it.

It really does help me to picture what Abel sees, and now I'm getting a handle on the difference between that and "observes." The simultaneity line of clocks is a good crutch, too, thanks for that.

Man, this does go deeper than I'd thought!
 
MoonDragn said:
But according to some recent articles I've read, doesn't gravity directly affect the speed of light? To use that as a measurement would certainly be distorted.

No. Gravity directly affects the velocity of light, but not the speed. Velocity is a vector quantity; speed is a scalar quantity.

I'm not picking nits here. The difference between scalar and vector quantities, while it might be glossed over in everyday use, is crucial to understanding relativity. Back to the zen, like Mount Fuji, there are many different views of relativity, all correct. One of those views is that relativity is a geometry of spacetime that allows observers to differ in their measurements of some vector quantities but requires them to agree on some scalar quantities derived from the vectors.

These scalar quantities include the speed of light, the absolute value of the Minkowskian 4-vector spacetime interval (which can also be expressed as a quaternion), and the absolute value of the momentum/energy 4-vector (or quaternion).

This leads to an interesting heuristic that you yourself can apply. Of course, people sometimes scree up, so in informal conversation and quasi-conversation (such as email, or this forum), somebody might confuse "speed" and "velocity." However, publications have editing and peer review to get rid of stuff like this.

So if you ever see a paper that conflates velocity and speed or talks about whether the "velocity of light" is a constant, it's a pretty safe bet that the author either 1) doesn't really know what he's talking about, or 2) is trying to pull a mathematical fast one.

Anyway, back to clocks. Gravity or acceleration does, of course, change the rate of clocks, as has already been described.

However, this isn't a problem, because you can make the light clock as small as you like. Except for what's called a "singularity," spacetime, even though it may be curved, is locally Euclidean.

It's also worth mentioning that every clock really is a light clock deep down. A quartz clock, a grandfather clock, everything you can imagine. They're made of parts, gears and springs and vibrating crystals, and they're made of atoms, and the atoms influence each other by virtual photons, in other words, light. Everything that happens to the light in the light clock is going to happen to this light as well. So you can't get rid of the light.

So an idealized light clock is the best you can get, because what it has, all other clocks have anyway, and it gets rid of stuff (like the pendulum on a grandfather clock) that is far more obviously affected by gravity.

Under Special Relativity, we can argue that all clocks have to go at the same rate, because if they didn't, then we'd be able to tell how fast we were going just by looking at our clocks, and if the Principle of Relativity is correct, that's impossible.

Under acceleration or gravity, we can't argue that. We know that the grandfather clock is going to go faster. But that's OK, because acceleration isn't relative in the same sense that velocity is relative (and yes, I meant to say "velocity," not "speed," though in some degenerate cases, speeds other than the speed of light are also relative). We can already measure that we are accelerating without looking outside. Everything is flying to the stern of the spaceship, or we feel the chair on our butts, or our faces go all wiggly and floppy on the acceleration couch, or something.

But an idealized, arbitrarily small light clock is still the best clock we can get, because the only things that are in it that matter are the only things we can't possibly get rid of: a distance (ruler), and light.
 
epepke said:
Except for what's called a "singularity," spacetime, even though it may be curved, is locally Euclidean.

I think you meant it's locally flat. It's still a Minkowski space (hyperbolic metric and all that), which isn't Euclidean, but the essential point here which I believe you're trying to convey is that on small enough length scales, you can always treat it as being uniform (unless, as you mention, you're at a singularity).
 
garys_2k said:
Thanks, epepke and 69dodge particularly, for helping me through this. I've been reading and rereading the posts and I think I'm getting it.

It really does help me to picture what Abel sees, and now I'm getting a handle on the difference between that and "observes." The simultaneity line of clocks is a good crutch, too, thanks for that.

Man, this does go deeper than I'd thought!

You're welcome.

Once you actually grok it, expect to walk around for at least a few days with glazed eyes, laughing hilariously. You will then understand why Einstein had a bunch of suits, all the same. There is a real danger, while in this state, of leaving the house without your pants on.
 
epepke said:
These scalar quantities include the speed of light, the absolute value of the Minkowskian 4-vector spacetime interval (which can also be expressed as a quaternion), and the absolute value of the momentum/energy 4-vector (or quaternion).

Can you expand what that actually means? I have never heard of light's speed described in a vector before. I assume the other components are to account specifically for gravity?
 
Ziggurat said:
I think you meant it's locally flat. It's still a Minkowski space (hyperbolic metric and all that), which isn't Euclidean, but the essential point here which I believe you're trying to convey is that on small enough length scales, you can always treat it as being uniform (unless, as you mention, you're at a singularity).

You're quite correct. It's locally Minkowskian.

Thank you for the correction.
 
MoonDragn said:
Can you expand what that actually means? I have never heard of light's speed described in a vector before. I assume the other components are to account specifically for gravity?

The speed isn't a vector. The velocity is a vector. The speed is the absolute value of the vector.

You have to distinguish. The speed doesn't change. The velocity changes.
 
MoonDragn said:
Also, what about articles like this :

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/02/010212075309.htm

Is what they say not true, that speed of light is not frequency dependent?

I seem to recall another recent news article that said something about speeding up light. Now if i can only find it.

Thanks for the link. I read that, but it doesn't really have anywhere near enough information to evaluate intelligently.

However, even if this were true, the effects would be well below significance at the scales we're talking about.
 
An interesting "paradox" of relativity regarding acceleration:

Imagine I take two spaceships at rest, one in front of the other and connected by a thread. I then tell both drivers to accelerate away constantly. Will the thread snap?

Regarding time dilation and circular motion: I guess a cute and esoteric system for which it may be important (I dont know actually) is muonic hydrogen. A free muon has a certain lifetime. But when it is captured by a proton to make muonic hydrogen it will experience roughly circular motion (in a much smaller radius orbit than an electron, since its mass is much greater), and its lifetime may be measureably affected...
 
Tez said:
An interesting "paradox" of relativity regarding acceleration:

Imagine I take two spaceships at rest, one in front of the other and connected by a thread. I then tell both drivers to accelerate away constantly. Will the thread snap?
One of my favorites because you can come up with a plausible reason for both answers.

Jan: Obviously, the thread will snap due to length contraction. As the spaceships accelerate, the thread will contract more and more until it snaps.

Dean: The thread will not snap. Consider it from the spaceship's point of view. From their reference frame, the other spaceship is at rest, so there is no length contraction. Time and distance measurements may vary from reference frame to reference frame, but you can't have one reference frame where the thread snaps and another where it doesn't.

So, who is right, Jan or Dean?
 
boooeee said:
So, who is right, Jan or Dean?

Jan is right, Dean is wrong. It is an incorrect assumption that in one ship's reference frame the other ship is at rest. It is not. If both ships start accelerating at the same time in their starting reference frame, they will NOT have started at the same time in a moving reference frame. The distance between them is only conserved when viewed from that starting reference frame, it is not conserved in the reference frames of the ships once they're moving.
 
MoonDragn said:
Is what they say not true, that speed of light is not frequency dependent?

The speed of light in a vacuum is considered to be independent of frequency in relativity (speed of light in media like glass or water is frequency dependent, but always lower than c - that's not a problem). If it were to be frequency dependent in any way, relativity would need corrections to it - these corrections might be negligible under most circumstances (just as relativistic corrections to Newtonian physics are negligible when dealing with something slow like a car), but they would still have to exist.

The article you linked to is very vague, so it's hard to get much of a handle on what exactly these corrections might be like, or what the experimental evidence for them really is. I'd consider this more speculation than anything else at this point.
 
Ziggurat said:
The speed of light in a vacuum is considered to be independent of frequency in relativity (speed of light in media like glass or water is frequency dependent, but always lower than c - that's not a problem).

I would like to add to this that the speed of the wave may be different to c, but the speed of the individual photons is c everywhere, regardless of their frequency.

On the accelerating spaceships.
 
The thread will snap because it's moving in the ships' frame and in the ships' frame the distance between them is increasing.

I don't have the math to prove it, but I can give you the jist:

In the rest frame (where they started from) they will always be the same distance apart, because they do the same thing. So, because of length contraction, we know the distance between them, according to them, is greater then the distance as viewed in the rest frame. Ergo the distance in the moving frame is increasing.
 
Ziggurat said:
The speed of light in a vacuum is considered to be independent of frequency in relativity (speed of light in media like glass or water is frequency dependent, but always lower than c - that's not a problem). If it were to be frequency dependent in any way, relativity would need corrections to it - these corrections might be negligible under most circumstances (just as relativistic corrections to Newtonian physics are negligible when dealing with something slow like a car), but they would still have to exist.

The article you linked to is very vague, so it's hard to get much of a handle on what exactly these corrections might be like, or what the experimental evidence for them really is. I'd consider this more speculation than anything else at this point.

Yeah, it's vague, but I just had an epiphany.

The speed of light really doesn't change through, say, glass. What happens is that there is stuff in the glass. The light interacts with the stuff in the glass, and that takes some time. There are a variety of ways of looking at it. The one usually give to people who haven't had QED yet is that the light is absorbed by, say, an electron, and then emitted some time later. The QED explanation is better, I think, but a bit more mind-bending. The maximum amplitude path for a photon is a kind of slalom around the electron shells, so the light really doesn't go in a straight line.

Now, interstellar and intergalactic space isn't empty. There's dust and gas in it. Not much, but some. Also, even without any dust, there are short-lived particle-antiparticle pairs. So c is actually a little bit bigger than the speed of light in a vacuum. Not much, but slightly. So even a vacuum really isn't empty, unless it's, say, the region between two Casimir plates.

Perhaps this, at really, really long distances, is enough to affect the path of the light in a detectable, frequency-dependent way. If this be the case, then GR would not have to be modified.

I can't tell for sure from the story either, because as you say, it's quite vague. It seems plausible, though.
 
Regarding this thread thing, how is this not a difference between acceleration and existence in a non-accelerating frame subject to gravity?

I realize you have non-simultaneity issues, and from the frame of the launch point the distance doesn't increase (so would he see the thread break, or what explanation would the launch point observer give for why it did break?).

If the two spaceships, connected by a thread but accelerating at the same rate, will eventually separate and snap the thread, why wouldn't two objects, suspended in a gravitational field (one above the other) eventually snap a thread connecting them?
 
garys_2k said:
If the two spaceships, connected by a thread but accelerating at the same rate, will eventually separate and snap the thread, why wouldn't two objects, suspended in a gravitational field (one above the other) eventually snap a thread connecting them?

Imagine if instead of a thread, you connected the ships with a strong cable. What happens then? Well, the cable tries to stretch, but it won't stretch much and it won't break because it's very strong. Instead, as the ships try to pull the cable apart, the cable will pull back, pulling the rear ship forward and the front ship back, so that they will NOT, in fact, experience the same acceleration. So the connecting line between them doesn't have to break. Similarly with objects in a gravitational field: there's more than one thing they could possibly do.

It's also quite possible to take the equivalence between gravity and acceleration too far: they may look the same on a local level, but in the end, gravity is not local, and it is not uniform, and that difference is really at the heart of it. If you're naive about your comparison, it's easy to end up making conclusions that make absolutely no sense. The equivalence idea is ONLY a jumping-off point, a hell of a lot of really ugly math follows in its wake.
 

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