General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[Praktik]

To me bikerdruid seems coldly indifferent to innocents being killed, even a genocide, if the result is to his liking politically.


You can try to rationalize it all you'd like, but the fact remains he supports a party of raging genocidal anti-semites.

Maybe I just don't "see the world differently" but from where I sit "supports genocide" as a final soloution to a political problem eliminates that political party from ever having my support and in fact I will give it only the scorn it deserves. No matter how much I liked the other planks on thier platform.

Wow!

"Coldly indifferent to innocents being killed"

Great bludgeon!

I guess I gave you more credit than you deserve, you actually believe that characterization is accurate!

Fascinating!

 

[Praktik]

Why are you having so much trouble answering the question Praktik?

Do you have negative feelings for David Duke supporters, or do you just think they are "seeing the world in different terms"? Personally, I think they're racist douchebags who deserve nothing but scorn. I suspect you feel the same way, but realize you'll look like a complete hypocrite if you say so.

I have no difficulty answering questions in a good faith discussion.

I have more difficulty answering questions when the person asking them is looking for any chance they can get to label me a genocide-loving bastard, OR, in this case, a hypocrite. If you can pull off both is that a Twofer?

 

[Praktik]

That's a great strawman and false dichotomy all wrapped up in one post.

Why not let Bikerdruid answer for himself? All I asked him was how he reconciles his position of not wanting to kill anyone and his support of Hamas. Is that such a ridiculous question to ask?

Yes.

 

[WildCat]

Wow!

"Coldly indifferent to innocents being killed"

Great bludgeon!

I guess I gave you more credit than you deserve, you actually believe that characterization is accurate!

Fascinating!

You spend a lot of time bloviating and midirecting and creating strawmen (like when you claimed I said you support David Duke), all to avoid answering a simple question.

 

[Praktik]

You spend a lot of time bloviating and midirecting and creating strawmen (like when you claimed I said you support David Duke), all to avoid answering a simple question.

Yes I know. I guess I'm falling short of the lofty heights of discussion in this thread to date.

When you guys set the bar so high with your accusations of indifference to genocide and murder, it's tough to keep up!

 

[WildCat]

I have no difficulty answering questions in a good faith discussion.

This is a good-faith discussion. I'm really trying to get in the head of people who support those who are literally trying to bring Hitler's "final solution" to a conclusion How is it you justify this in your head? It's bewildering to me.

I have more difficulty answering questions when the person asking them is looking for any chance they can get to label me a genocide-loving bastard, OR, in this case, a hypocrite. If you can pull off both is that a Twofer?

Why do you think the answers to those questions label you a hypocrite? Why do you give Palestinians a free pass wrt the most extreme bigotry, while you give no quarter to David Duke supporters who AFAIK do not openly advocate genocide?

Do you hold Palestinians to a different, much lower standard than white Americans and if so, why?

 

[WildCat]

Answer the question Praktik. It's really not that hard. Maybe you'll even have a revelation along the way.

 

[Praktik]

This is a good-faith discussion. I'm really trying to get in the head of people who support those who are literally trying to bring Hitler's "final solution" to a conclusion How is it you justify this in your head? It's bewildering to me.

No it doesn't seem like you're trying to understand much at all about the way bikerdruid thinks. It seems to me like you're trying to shame him to your side by finding ways to conflate his positions with support of the murder of innocents. This tendency of yours is almost on autopilot, so quickly did you turn it onto me when I haven't actually voiced any opinions on Hamas in this thread for you to work from.

But bikerdruid is not a racist, he's not an anti-semite, he is not a "supporter" of Hamas like a Palestinian in the strip might be, or a racist like David Duke who might support them because they have a shared hatred of jews.

Your fault is being overly eager in categorizing any deviation from your understanding of Hamas as the polar opposite of your position.

There's a spectrum Wildcat, and people are free to deviate from your understanding of what Hamas is without them having to be people who love it when they murder children. I mean, when ex-Mossad chiefs talk about the practical, existing potential for a deal with Hamas, I think there's room for nuance without one having to be an abject moral cripple who loves it when children are murdered as long as they're Israeli.

 

[Praktik]

Why do you think the answers to those questions label you a hypocrite? Why do you give Palestinians a free pass wrt the most extreme bigotry, while you give no quarter to David Duke supporters who AFAIK do not openly advocate genocide?

Do you hold Palestinians to a different, much lower standard than white Americans and if so, why?

Sure I'll answer. Just try and see if you can answer without asking me what my opinion is on <insert villain here>. Can we keep it to David Duke and Hamas?

Actually of course, from a philosophical perspective both see the world "in different terms" and this should be uncontroversial.

Yes. I have scorn for all racists. Whether they're white and neo nazi or brown and terrorist scumbags.

I don't give Palestinians a free pass, but I can see the systemic factors that inflame, encourage and produce the extreme hatred that terrorism is rooted in.

Many of these are under the control of Palestinians. Many, and perhaps some of the most crucial, are under the control of the Israelis - some of who are vile racist bastards.

Is this when you play the "moral equivalency" card?

Or you saving that one for later?

 

[portlandatheist]

"Do you think it's right that the people of Gaza are being punished for electing Hamas? "

Do you think it's right that the people of Israel have to sit and endure attacks on their civilian population because the people of Gaza decided to elect a government who's goal is to destroy Israel?

Israel has 3 choices as far as I can see:

1) Sit back and allow Hamas to target and attack their civilians (and the only reason it hasn't been too devastating is because of how harshly Israel responds to attacks. They had their days of daily suicide bombings and said enough was enough).

2) They can just let the arms shipments get to Hamas and then attack those targets once they are placed in civilian populations which would then increase the death toll of those "poor Palestinians" 1000 times.

3) Or they could inspect shipments to insure that no weapons are smuggled in, eliminating needless deaths of Palestinians and Israeli civilians.

Which is the most humane choice that would present the least amount of suffering and deaths?

Clearly choice 3 is in the best interest of the Palestinians.

 

[WildCat]

I don't give Palestinians a free pass, but I can see the systemic factors that inflame, encourage and produce the extreme hatred that terrorism is rooted in.

Many of these are under the control of Palestinians. Many, and perhaps some of the most crucial, are under the control of the Israelis - some of who are vile racist bastards.

Is this when you play the "moral equivalency" card?

Or you saving that one for later?

So the Israelis made Palestinians genocidal racists because "some of [them] are vile racist bastards"? At any rate, I'm certainly not seeing a desire for genocide in mainstream Israeli society the way it is in Palestinian society.

Why don't you give racist Israelis the same excuses you give the Palestinians? Were they born with racist genes, and thus their racism is unaffected by any environmental influences?

I'm still not getting it. I see no reason to look for the causes of racism, I'd rather just condemn it. I certainly don't support them in any way, shape, or form. And certainly not because we might have some political beliefs in common.

When I see a political party advocating genocide I don't ponder the reasons they support genocide when deciding whether or not to support them. It's a dealbreaker for me, they don't get my support no matter what.

As one peace activist once sang "But when you want money for people with minds that hate, all I can tell you is brother you have to wait".

 

[bikerdruid]

i do not support the killing of jews, or anyone for that matter.

What about Communist guerillas like Che Guevara?

i don't support the killing of communist guerrillas either.....good point, virus, thanks.

 

[bikerdruid]

You also "don't know" if you'd support a party of genocidal anti-semites in Canada if you liked their other policies.

now you are putting words in my mouth.
i never said that at all.
canada is not even remotely a part of the discussion.
we are talking about gaza.....

 

[bikerdruid]

That's a great strawman and false dichotomy all wrapped up in one post.

Why not let Bikerdruid answer for himself? All I asked him was how he reconciles his position of not wanting to kill anyone and his support of Hamas. Is that such a ridiculous question to ask?

in war things happen. war is a tragedy and a crime against humanity.
when innocent lives are lost, that becomes painfully evident.
i do not support the killing of innocents, i don't care who is pulling the trigger.
given a choice in afghanistan, who i support, i support the canadian troops and want them home, but i do not support any campaign in which innocents are killed.
i do not support the taliban and their repression of human rights.
i do not support war, but i support those fighting for a better life.
are you people really that dense that you cannot see the difference?

 

[Giz]

in war things happen. war is a tragedy and a crime against humanity.
when innocent lives are lost, that becomes painfully evident.
i do not support the killing of innocents, i don't care who is pulling the trigger.
given a choice in afghanistan, who i support, i support the canadian troops and want them home, but i do not support any campaign in which innocents are killed.
i do not support the taliban and their repression of human rights.
i do not support war, but i support those fighting for a better life.
are you people really that dense that you cannot see the difference?

Who do you support that is currently "fighting for a better life"?

 

[Praktik]

So the Israelis made Palestinians genocidal racists because "some of [them] are vile racist bastards"? At any rate, I'm certainly not seeing a desire for genocide in mainstream Israeli society the way it is in Palestinian society.

Why don't you give racist Israelis the same excuses you give the Palestinians? Were they born with racist genes, and thus their racism is unaffected by any environmental influences?

I'm still not getting it. I see no reason to look for the causes of racism, I'd rather just condemn it.

Well look, lets all take a deep breath. <sigh>

See where you go in your questions?

It's like you want me to have some extra hate on for Israelis - or at least, as giving "excuses" to the Palestinians, you can't help yourself but interpret my words that way!

In answer to your 2nd two questions, I'm not sure I went into enough detail for you to characterize my words as such, and if you're pressing me on what I think of say, hateful violent and racist segments of the Israeli population and what excuses I make for them: mostly I think they are just indoctrinated that way from an early age (involving religion and cultural influences) and are then "set" in their ways because they live in demographics that reward them for having these views socially (ie, friends and relatives validating these perspectives, we know the drill as skeptics: cherry picking to support the assumption, cognitive dissonance, etc).

And yes I would agree, without having access to stats to prove my assumption, that there would be less, per capita, of these types of vile people in Israeli society than there would be in Palestine.

And Im not sure we need to get all that much more extravagant than Maslow's Heirarchy of Needs to find out why that is. (though I will allow for other factors to contribute as well, such as perhaps, a more active and widespread indoctrination on the Palestinian side, but then the snake might bite it's own tail: how did it get that way in the first place? Maybe back to the Heirarchy!)

 

[bikerdruid]

Who do you support that is currently "fighting for a better life"?

i support the right of palestinians to overcome the oppression of the state of israel.

 

[Giz]

Sure I'll answer. Just try and see if you can answer without asking me what my opinion is on <insert villain here>. Can we keep it to David Duke and Hamas?

Actually of course, from a philosophical perspective both see the world "in different terms" and this should be uncontroversial.

Yes. I have scorn for all racists. Whether they're white and neo nazi or brown and terrorist scumbags.

I don't give Palestinians a free pass, but I can see the systemic factors that inflame, encourage and produce the extreme hatred that terrorism is rooted in.

Many of these are under the control of Palestinians. Many, and perhaps some of the most crucial, are under the control of the Israelis - some of who are vile racist bastards.

Is this when you play the "moral equivalency" card?

Or you saving that one for later?

Which is functionally identical to:



Sure I'll answer. Just try and see if you can answer without asking me what my opinion is on Nazis. Can we keep it to Nazis and the Allies?

Actually of course, from a philosophical perspective both see the world "in different terms" and this should be uncontroversial.

Yes. I have scorn for all racists. Whether they're white and neo nazi or brown and terrorist scumbags.

I don't give Nazis a free pass, but I can see the systemic factors that inflame, encourage and produce the extreme hatred that Nazism is rooted in.

Many of these are under the control of Nazis. Many, and perhaps some of the most crucial, are under the control of the authors of Versaillies - some of whom are expansionist powers too.

Is this when you play the "moral equivalency" card?

Or you saving that one for later?



Now where is my rolleyes smiley?

We should try to understand. But sometimes the result of that understanding will be to condemn, not condone.

You appear to be stuck in a reflexively non-judgemental stance, trying to appear sophisticated by hand waving away the indefensible because they are disadvantaged.

 

[Giz]

i support the right of palestinians to overcome the oppression of the state of israel.

Questions:

1) Can you support that goal without supporting Hamas?

2) Can you, in principle, support that goal while rejecting terrorist violence against civilians?

 

[bikerdruid]

Questions:

1) Can you support that goal without supporting Hamas?

2) Can you, in principle, support that goal while rejecting terrorist violence against civilians?

1. yes.
2. yes.

hamas is a fanatical group, whose claimed purpose is apparently the killing of jews. i do not support the killing of innocents.
i do, however support the right of palestinians to choose their own government.
israel killed hundreds of children in 'cast lead', perhaps one of the most unbalanced fights since caesar's conquest of gaul.