General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[Thunder]

That is the claim, yes.

I'm sure this is a lie, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

please provide evidence that someone here has argued that Israel controls Hamas.

 

[bikerdruid]

That is the claim, yes.

really??
who has made that claim?

 

[Thunder]

really??
who has made that claim?

I think we all have a right to know.

Wildcat- who at JREF has stated that Israel controls Hamas?

provide a quoted post..or retract the nonesense claim.

 

[WildCat]

really??
who has made that claim?

Anyone who says Gaza is occupied by Israel is making that claim.

 

[bikerdruid]

Anyone who says Gaza is occupied by Israel is making that claim.

nonsense.
in your world does 1+1=6?

 

[boyntonstu]

Dennis Miller did NOT say this. It was Larry Miller

"The Palestinians want their own country. There's just one thing about that: There are no Palestinians. It's a made up word. Israel was called Palestine for two thousand years. Like "Wiccan," "Palestinian" sounds ancient but is really a modern invention. Before the Israelis won the land in war, Gaza was owned by Egypt, and there were no "Palestinians" then, and the West Bank was owned by Jordan, and there were no "Palestinians" then. As soon as the Jews took over and started growing oranges as big as basketballs, what do you know, say hello to the "Palestinians," weeping for their deep bond with their lost "land" and "nation." So for the sake of honesty, let's not use the word "Palestinian" any more to describe these delightful folks, who dance for joy at our deaths until someone points out they're being taped. Instead, let's call them what they are: "Other Arabs From The Same General Area Who Are In Deep Denial About Never Being Able To Accomplish Anything In Life And Would Rather Wrap Themselves In The Seductive Melodrama Of Eternal Struggle And Death." I know that's a bit unwieldy to expect to see on CNN. How about this, then: "Adjacent Jew-Haters."......... "


http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/001/161yaihr.asp

Almost 10 years old, but true nevertheless.

 

[mortimer]

I think we all have a right to know.

Wildcat- who at JREF has stated that Israel controls Hamas?

provide a quoted post..or retract the nonesense claim.

The original claim was that Israel has effective control of Gaza, therefore Gaza is occupied. If Israel has effective control of Gaza, why would they not also have effective control of Hamas?

 

[Thunder]

There are no Palestinians. It's a made up word.

so is "Israeli".

this land has been referred to as Palestine for hundreds if not thousands of years. it was first called so by the Romans, and the name stuck.

the name is used on maps going back centuries.

oh...and another thing. if Palestine really is made up, and there is really no such thing as a Palestinian..

then why is it that the Jews called themselves Palestinians before 1948??

who ran the Palestine Post?

who was in the Palestine philharmonic?

it was Jews.


...but this really is all just silliness. it doesnt matter if they are called Palestinians & Israelis...or Jews & Arabs. the fact is, the world community decided long ago to divide te land between the River and the Sea between two peoples.

 

[Thunder]

The original claim was that Israel has effective control of Gaza, therefore Gaza is occupied. If Israel has effective control of Gaza, why would they not also have effective control of Hamas?

yes, Israel does still have ultimate control over the Gaza Strip.

no, Israel does not have control over Hamas. this is simply your lie.

so basically, you are telling us that in reality, NO ONE here ever claimed that Israel controls Hamas. that was simply just your silly strawman or lie.

thanks for admitting to that, Wildcat.

 

[Thunder]

Anyone who says Gaza is occupied by Israel is making that claim.

oh, so if one believes that Israel still Occupies Gaza, they therefore also believe that Israel controls Hamas?

my goodness Wildcat, this is perhaps the stupidest thing you have ever said.

and its also borderline CT...just like believing that the CIA controls Al Qaeda. did you get your theory about Hamas from Alex Jones?

 

[FireGarden]

You mean makes an ambiguous statement without evidence, from an NGO with political movitvations to boot. There's no statement that Israel issues fishing permits there either, no matter how much you wish it does.

LOL. The bit I quoted says Israel doesn't issue permits to all applicants. Which implies that it does issue permits to some.

You'll trust whoever supports this hapless argument of yours.

'whoever' in this case includes almost everybody.

The CIA website is not there to make a legal argument by parrot what organizations like the UN state.

The CIA website is there to state facts.
You say they're quoting the UN. Wildcat says they're quoting the US state dept.

None of which make legal arguments that support your claim.

I'm not here to argue the law with you. We had a lot of fun in the other thread, arguing about whether or not Egypt opened the Rafah crossing to a greater extent after the flotilla raid. I was satisfied with the reporting of the BBC, YNET, Haaretz, the JPost, etc. But you wanted actual numbers. Easy enough. I gave you the numbers. You still wouldn't admit you were wrong.

I will not argue the law with you.

Cherry picking. Here's the rest of that quote: "I honestly don’t think that the pro-occupation argument in the end withstands scrutiny on the facts. This is not an occupation – this is a siege."

It's not cherry picking. In fact, it is you who ignore part of what Mycroft's source says. I acknowledged the quote you gave when I said this:

He initially disagrees with that 'reasonable case' but, in his response to the first comment, he admits that he doesn't have the expertise to judge the relevant factor: the ease with which Israel could exercise its control over Gaza. Which undermines the opinion he gave in the main text.

But you ignore that Mycroft's source modifies his initial judgement in the comments.

As the legal arguments made more extensively in this paper:

Is Gaza Occupied? Redefining the Legal Status of Gaza

You've given that source before. I got this far last time and still see no reason to read further:

http://www.biu.ac.il/Besa/MSPS83.pdf

On September 12, 2005, the last Israeli soldier left the Gaza Strip, and
there has been no official Israeli military or civilian presence in the
territory since that time. Nonetheless, the United Nations has been
reluctant to accept that Gaza in no longer occupied, with a spokesman
for UN Secretary General Ban Ki-Moon declaring in January 2009
that “the UN defines Gaza, the West Bank, and East Jerusalem as
occupied Palestinian territory. No, that definition hasn’t changed.”

Israel has had official military business in the territory. That your source refuses to recognise that probably explains their position. We've been over it before: land, air, sea, buffer zones, etc.

I support this changing of status from occupied to an intermediate, albeit, temporary one. The reason it has not done so following Israel's unilateral withdrawal and loss of effective control of Gaza is merely one of politics, nothing more.

I'm sure you do support it:

The purpose of this paper is: (1) to establish that Israel presently does
not exercise “effective control” over Gaza and, therefore, does not
occupy it, and in doing so (2) to provide a comprehensive analysis to
lay the groundwork to redefine the official status of Gaza as a “sui
generis territory” for the intermediate period between the previous
Palestinian occupation and any prospective future statehood.

"Sui generis ", huh?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sui_generis
"...literally meaning of its own kind/genus or unique in its characteristics."

Which support Mycroft's position more adequately and in greater detail.

Actually, I don't think that is Mycroft's position. He was of the opinion that Israel was being treated differently -- not that Israel should get to invent new categories so as to avoid using the word 'occupation'.

The point of the last bit still escapes me. Even if the world was to accept that the occupation is over... What then? Do you get to ask "The occupation is over, so why does the fighting go on?" as if that is confusing. Who wouldn't be satisfied to live with a blockade? There's no pleasing some people, I reckon.

That is the claim, yes.

No, it isn't. It is your confusion.
Perhaps you could read Mycroft's source and point out how the argument which he describes as 'reasonable' would imply that Hamas would be under Israel's control if Israel had the ability to exercise its control in Gaza?

Originally to Mycroft:

What does your source say in argument number 4? (The one your source thinks is the most important).

I'll start by repeating that (in the comments) he doesn't seem to be so sure of the conclusion he first gave. He allows that his first impression could be wrong. He also makes clear that (in his point 4, rather than earlier points) it is not an issue of Israel having troops in Gaza -- his most important factor is the ease with which Israel can exercise its control in Gaza. That is why he brings up the issue of the Sunni triangle in Iraq and the occupation of Yugoslavia. Issues you seem to gloss over because they don't match what you've been saying.

In the main text, his impression was that Gaza should not be considered occupied because of the difficulty Israel would have exercising control there. He also said that "a reasonable case can be made that Israel retains effective control over Gaza in this potential sense" -- so no need to be a revisionist to make that case, you can be reasonable! Do you agree with your source on that?

The first comment, taking up his Sunni Triangle example, noted the difficulty America had retaking Fallujah. To which your source admits that the comparison of the level of difficulty isn't obvious (would require expert testimony) and his "initial impression was the opposite, but it might well be wrong".

Not wrong about Israeli troops being in Gaza. I somehow feel the need to emphasise that point. The issue of troops being in Gaza was addressed in his points 1-3.

He says he could be wrong about whether the level of difficulty Israel would have in exercising control in Gaza would be such as to lead to a conclusion that Gaza is not occupied.

Do you agree with my interpretation of what your source said?


***Mycroft's source
http://www.ejiltalk.org/is-gaza-still-occupied-by-israel/

By the way, it was exposed recently that "B'tselem" supports the so-called "right of return", that is, the demographic destruction of the Jewish state. Like most such "human rights" organizations in Israel, they seem to support all human rights, except those of the Jews to live.

I notice your bait and switch.
It is possible to live in a state which isn't majority Jewish.

 

[mortimer]

yes, Israel does still have ultimate control over the Gaza Strip.

no, Israel does not have control over Hamas. this is simply your lie.

so basically, you are telling us that in reality, NO ONE here ever claimed that Israel controls Hamas. that was simply just your silly strawman or lie.

thanks for admitting to that, Wildcat.

I am not Wildcat, and I did not claim Israel controls Hamas.

 

[mortimer]

oh, so if one believes that Israel still Occupies Gaza, they therefore also believe that Israel controls Hamas?

Again, the original claim (by The Fool, I believe) is that Israel has "effective control" over Gaza, and therefore, Gaza is occupied. How can Israel have "effective control" over a territory and not have "effective control" of the government running that territory?

and its also borderline CT...just like believing that the CIA controls Al Qaeda. did you get your theory about Hamas from Alex Jones?

Al Queda is in charge of what territory that the CIA is currently occupying, exactly?

 

[Thunder]

Again, the original claim (by The Fool, I believe) is that Israel has "effective control" over Gaza, and therefore, Gaza is occupied.

evidence?

How can Israel have "effective control" over a territory and not have "effective control" of the government running that territory??

wait....so now YOU'RE jumping on to the conspiracy theory bandwagon??

now you too are arguing that Israel controls Hamas?

wow.....did you get this from Prisonplanet or Rense?

what's next, Hamas suicide-bomb attacks were really Israeli false-flags?

 

[mortimer]

evidence?

Here you go.

Its pretty straightforward.

Israel has effective control of Gaza.....I have laboriously explained why. I am amazed you can't follow the bouncing ball.

wait....so now YOU'RE jumping on to the conspiracy theory bandwagon??

now you too are arguing that Israel controls Hamas?

wow.....did you get this from Prisonplanet or Rense?

what's next, Hamas suicide-bomb attacks were really Israeli false-flags?

I have never claimed that Isreal has control over Hamas, so you can drop that strawman. I never claimed that Israel has effective control over Gaza, and therefore is occupying Gaza. I am asking, how can you have effective control over a territory, and yet not have effective control over the government running that territory?

 

[Thunder]

I am asking, how can you have effective control over a territory, and yet not have effective control over the government running that territory?

Israel has little to no control over the many administrative decisions that Hamas makes during a daily basis, dealing with their rule of the Gaza Strip.

Israel controls the airspace, the water, shoreline and the territorial waters of Gaza. Israel controls what trade can get to Gaza from Israeli territory.

But no, Israel does not control Hamas' day-to-day decisions over Gaza.

Happy? good.

 

[mortimer]

Israel has little to no control over the many administrative decisions that Hamas makes during a daily basis, dealing with their rule of the Gaza Strip.

Israel controls the airspace, the water, shoreline and the territorial waters of Gaza. Israel controls what trade can get to Gaza from Israeli territory.

But no, Israel does not control Hamas' day-to-day decisions over Gaza.

Happy? good.

That's fine. So the U.S. (or NATO, if you'd like) is occupying Libya, right?

 

[Thunder]

That's fine. So the U.S. (or NATO, if you'd like) is occupying Libya, right?

NATO has yet to conquer Libyan territory through armed conflict, so its clearly not the same thing.

But yes, I see the game you're playing.

 

[WildCat]

You say they're quoting the UN. Wildcat says they're quoting the US state dept.

We actually don't know who they're quoting, all we know is:

Information is provided by Antarctic Information Program (National Science Foundation), Armed Forces Medical Intelligence Center (Department of Defense), Bureau of the Census (Department of Commerce), Bureau of Labor Statistics (Department of Labor), Central Intelligence Agency, Council of Managers of National Antarctic Programs, Defense Intelligence Agency (Department of Defense), Department of Energy, Department of State, Fish and Wildlife Service (Department of the Interior), Maritime Administration (Department of Transportation), National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency (Department of Defense), Naval Facilities Engineering Command (Department of Defense), Office of Insular Affairs (Department of the Interior), Office of Naval Intelligence (Department of Defense), US Board on Geographic Names (Department of the Interior), US Transportation Command (Department of Defense), Oil & Gas Journal, and other public and private sources.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/docs/contributor_copyright.html

 

[Thunder]

Originally Posted by Virus
So Israel controls Hamas?

That is the claim, yes.

who has made that claim?

Anyone who says Gaza is occupied by Israel is making that claim.

umm.....you do realize that you are indeed lying about the claims of other members, right?

no one here has ever claimed that Israel controls Hamas. that is only your imagined claim.